the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

After watching hundreds of different versions from various provinces in China tonight of the 10 tan toi and 12 tan toi, I thought that the movements seemed familiar (other than having done these forms since the late 1970s).

Indeed, they matched closely, with some minor variation, in form and function to the Yue Shi ba Fan Shou set, and then after looking at dozens of tapes of that set, I suddenly knew where I had seen those movements before as well, and I realized that the Shanxi XY Lian Huan set of 12 rows, is just another way to do the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou and the 10 & 12 tan toi sets.
Each row in the Shanxi XY Lian Huan set was in the same order as the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou sets and these were in the same order as the 12 Roads of the Shanxi XY Lian Huan Set.

That was really weird to see! I did the forms myself and could easily interchange from each of the three styles by knowing which road I was on.

So, somewhere between the three styles there was some exchanging being done.

Unless both the Shandong based Tan toi sets and the Shanxi XY Lian Huan set are both based on the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set?
That's the more plausible explanation?

In essence, these three sets are the same in sequence and function of each road. that's too much of a coincidence.

Tan tui's a really common set, though. Probably millions of people have learned it as their first set.

What is the "Shanxi xingyi lianhuan set of 12 rows?" Are you talking about the wuxing lianhuan set? Or something else?

Song style xingyiquan has a tantui set... Not sure about Che style.

I think Che has it. Isnt there a story of Che YiZhai being impressed by a shaolin gent, and learning some Tantui?

edededed wrote:What is the "Shanxi xingyi lianhuan set of 12 rows?" Are you talking about the wuxing lianhuan set? Or something else?

Song style xingyiquan has a tantui set... Not sure about Che style.

Its not the Wuxing lianhhaun.

If someone has that 8 disc survey vcd set of Shanxi XY, it is the first set that is after the last of the 12 animals sets.

as i understand it, che style has a set tan tui as a beginner set form. CYZ modified it based on shaolin tan tui.

I think Sal is talking about the Tan Tui set from Che style.

Is there any way to see images of the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set for comparison?

Isnt there a story of Che YiZhai being impressed by a shaolin gent, and learning some Tantui?

Nah, that was Li Fuzhen (student of CYZ) who invented the Mandarin Duck Kicks routine after he got kicked by a Fanzi guy.

I guess the Che style Tantui came from Che Yizhai's previous Shaolin training.

The Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set is 8 moves x 3, one for beginning, middle, and end levels, 24 moves.

Here's the youtube links to what I could find, just the beginning level is there, the Shanxi Lian Quan (its Lian Quan not Lian Huan) has the same names for the most part as the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou (which some branches of Shanxi XY do teach in their entirety).
You can see from the video that the first row for example is essentially (with stylistic differences) the same as Row 1 of Tan Toi, and row one of Shanxi Lian Quan.

Oh, and I have been told by Eagle Claw people that they too to this same set of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou through the Li Du Kuan line.

Well, yes, if Che knew the Tantui set, he just had to adapt it to his XY, so there won't be much diference there. Just the same, with XY flavor.

Do you have the names of the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set?. I have the names of the Che style Tantui set here

Felipe Bidó wrote:Well, yes, if Che knew the Tantui set, he just had to adapt it to his XY, so there won't be much diference there. Just the same, with XY flavor.

Do you have the names of the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set?. I have the names of the Che style Tantui set here

Not with me, first one is Pao Quan . . .

So, interesting, if he took the tan tui set and modified it to XY, it winds up looking like this Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set?

I can see the tan tui in the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set now, thanks to that Shanxi XY set.
What if the people who developed the tan tui, which originally was not from Shandong but from western regions, used Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou to develop it? Or the other way around, depending on which one is older.
They are too much alike to be coincidental, look at the video, the first row is so much like first row of tan tui, every step of it (without tan tui kick).

Originally, during the Tang dynasty, the Moslem style as known as Jiazi Quan, frame boxing, and it was a lot like Yan Qing / Mi Tsung Quan (I think Jiazi is older, Yan Qing Quan is from around late 900s AD, and even does a very similar Jiazi set).

After it reached Shandong province, Jiazi Quan was divided into three parts to make it easier to learn and less military:
Cha Quan, Hua Quan, and Tan Tui.
The tan toi was originally 24-28 rows, later condensed into 10 (but same movements), like the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou.
They could have added kicks to the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou to develop it. This evolution happened between the Tang and the Ming dynasty start.

Info about Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou:

Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou is based on numbers, each number stands for a theory, like 2 is for yin / yang theory, 5 elements theory, etc., and it has various animals in its movements, including the Dragon, Tiger, snake, horse, monkey, eagle, bear, rooster, Hawk, and Swallow.

It contains mostly military-oriented attacks, and is based primarily upon the principles of combining internal and external techniques, theory and application. Movements are from its principal philosophy of the positive and negative and the five elements of the heart, liver, lung, spleen and kidney in the human body. It combines breathing and mentality to make fist blows powerful and complete. It resorts more to fist plays than to feet plays and does not lift the knees, nor does it wield elbows away from the body.

Well, the 3 sets could have a common origin. The conexion is clear. Only one thing is sure. Che took a set from the outside, and adapted it. If this XY tantui set had been in XY since the first time, you could have seen it in other branches, apart from the ones close to Che.

The first move in the Che XY Tantui is "Pao Quan in Horse Stance". When you have time, please post the other names.

Felipe Bidó wrote:Well, the 3 sets could have a common origin. The connection is clear. Only one thing is sure. Che took a set from the outside, and adapted it. If this XY tantui set had been in XY since the first time, you could have seen it in other branches, apart from the ones close to Che.

The first move in the Che XY Tantui is "Pao Quan in Horse Stance". When you have time, please post the other names.

Yeah, that's the name, Pao Quan in Horse Stance.

What if Che saw that the tan tui was very similar to to Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set that some branches of Shanxi do?
The original 8 moves in YSBFS are supposed to be very old, from the end of the Southern Song era, they were developed and spread by Yue Fei's sons in Hubei province.
So, that would bring Yue Fei back in as a root to XY, ha.

You can really see movements from the Five elements and animals in YSBFS set.

XY most likely has more than one set of foundational material, besides YSBFs, also Ji Long Feng's Liu He spear, Shaolin Xin Yi Ba, some Shaolin nei gong (Luohan 13 Gong has a lot in common with XY, not just with TJQ), etc.

Felipe Bidó wrote:Well, the 3 sets could have a common origin. The conexion is clear.

That is by far the most intense way I've ever seen connection spelled in my life.


Anyway, there was a video a while back posted with someone doing something that looked like an ''internal'' tan tui that looked sort of neat. It was a westerner , if I can track it down I'll put up a link but I don't remember if anyone said it had much to do with any line of Xing yi in general.

salcanzonieri wrote:The Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set is 8 moves x 3, one for beginning, middle, and end levels, 24 moves.

Here's the youtube links to what I could find, just the beginning level is there, the Shanxi Lian Quan (its Lian Quan not Lian Huan) has the same names for the most part as the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou (which some branches of Shanxi XY do teach in their entirety).
You can see from the video that the first row for example is essentially (with stylistic differences) the same as Row 1 of Tan Toi, and row one of Shanxi Lian Quan.

Oh, and I have been told by Eagle Claw people that they too to this same set of Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou through the Li Du Kuan line.

This is NOT the same as Tan Tui Row 1 at all. It does not look like the 10 routine Tan Tui from NanJin Inititute, and it does not look like 12 routine Tan tui from JinWu either. The way to execute the moves are even more different than the way to execute of any Tan Tui. The way the person execute his moves is more Xing Yi flavor.

The difference in systems is not only bacause they have different forms, but also they way they practice their forms or routines or moves. Some systems use the same form in their currilulum, but the way they practice the form or move in the form are different. That is the reason the systems are different.

To use the look or the names to categories CMA systems is simply WRONG. For example, LF has a form called "Si Lu Beng Da" that 7* PM also shared with some minor different moves. But, the way to practice the form from LF and PM are very different. China is a big country with many different CMA styles or systems. Those systems usually have their own set of froms and training methods. Sometimes they may shared the same forms, but they practice it differently.

XY has its own set of forms and training methods other than any other systems that may it unique among CMA systems. The same applies to Tai Chi, Ba Gua, LF, PM, and many others. they all have their unique way of practice. The way Tan Tui practiced in Jin Wu is very different from the way we pracitce Tan Tui in LF. That is why there are 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 different rows of Tan Tui. Every system use it to fit their own training.