What is the dantian and why is it important?

[Walter Joyce]

I

But, I am left wondering if there is more to dantien training than this, and how training of the middle and upper dantien affects the musculature, or in the case of the upper dantien, the mind/spirit.

As some who have read my posts over the years my remember, I would love for there to be a scientific explanation for this type of training,but there isn't, at least not a satisfactory one, as of yet.

Walter,
did you heard of Johnson`s book "Essence of internal MA"?
there is quite good explanation how 3 DT works and some exercises.

I haven't, but I'm checking it out, thank you.

[Walter Joyce]

I don't think the theory of torque or gyroscopes explain what happens when an internal artist strikes a deadly blow. First of all, in any system capable of having rotational motion (in other words, any solid object) most of the energy is required to accelerate the system (or body) from the state of rest to some motion. Torque is required for it to have that motion. Once it attains an angular velocity, ideally, according to Newton's laws, it should always remain in that motion. But due to frictional forces in the air, a little energy is indeed required to maintain that motion.


So even if the martial artists expends his muscular energy to reach a particular angular velocity, its only the angular momentum that would be transferred to the victim. This is even worse than directly striking. The kind of strikes that non-martial artists or external martial artists use. So in my opinion, the theory of torque or gyroscopes doesn't lend any plausible explanation to the devastating effect of the strike of the likes of Chen Xiaowang; even when they just seem to be striking lightly.


According to Taoist theory, Dantian is the field of elixir and it is never claimed to be anything physical at all. Different terms are used for the same field in different traditions like yoga, tantra, kundalini etc. In none of these traditions, dantian is considered as a physical entity.

According to Tibetan Buddhism that I read little of, we all have a "subtle body" (and a "subtle mind") in addition to the regular physical body. All these chakras (meridians), dantians etc are marked on this "subtle body" and have nothing to do with the physical organs that we have.

I only recently felt my "field of elixir" while standing in the "zen posture" for some considerable time. I have also felt it while doing sitting meditation many times. According to my experience, dantian is not a physical entity at all.


We all have five senses to sense different physical objects. When we are given light electric current on our body, its actually the sense of touch that allows us to feel it. But I guess we don't directly feel the electric current, but only feel its effects like "heat". I wonder which of the five senses is being used when we feel our Chi....

According to Buddhism, we have six senses in all. The Citta (mind-consciousness) is just another sense in addition to the other five. I believe its this sense that is utilized in "experiencing" or "feeling" our Chi or dantian. Now don't ask me whether Chi is real or not. If five senses alone create our reality, then perhaps it may not be real. However, if citta also plays a great role in defining what reality is, then these are real.

These are all just my speculation. I am not an expert in any of these traditions at all.

I don't mean to contradict myself, but the ideas expressed above, though not as clear as the post, have been running through my thoughts on the dantien.

Of curse the only way to square this with scientific thought is that it is an as of yet unexplained phenomenon, but Snow leopard's explanation does resonated with parts of my thinking.

And I think this dichotomy of thought is inherent when you take a concept like dantien, and its cultural connotations and try to understand or explain it through a different cultural lens.

[NoSword]

Durrrrr I hate to post again when I said I was peacing out, but this discussion is killing me. Here is my final word on the subject.

If you are confused about dantian, here is what you need to do.

1) Go find someone who claims to have knowledge of dantian.

2) Ask them to show you their dantian and what they can do with it.

3) Repeat until satisfied.

4) Profit.

AK

[SnowLeopard]

Durrrrr I hate to post again when I said I was peacing out, but this discussion is killing me. Here is my final word on the subject.

If you are confused about dantian, here is what you need to do.

1) Go find someone who claims to have knowledge of dantian.

2) Ask them to show you their dantian and what they can do with it.

3) Repeat until satisfied.

4) Profit.

AK

Thats a good algorithm there. But the problem is that if you go to the really adept teachers and masters of their esoteric arts - whom you are more likely to find in the remote mountains, hetmitages and monasteries of China, Taiwan or Tibet etc - they will give you "vague" and mystical explanations like those that have been already given (and which have not satisfied the understanding of many modern practitioners). They will talk about "Chi", Dantien etc. And if you go to the martial artists who are more "modern" and well known, and who have good following among the westerners, they too will use these mystical terms while trying to add in a few modern scientific terms here and there that they are aware of in order to satisfy (or cool down and reassure) the curiosity of the western students and seekers.

Of course, when you want to hear something specific from those expert grandmasters of their styles, you will be told that only. If a certain guy goes all the way to China from North America to meet some famous Tai chi grandmaster to seek the explanation for the effectiveness of his art, then in actuality he is subconsciously already prepared to hear certain familiar terms like "spin around the centre", "gyroscopic motion", "torque" etc. Therefore, if the grandmaster ends up telling something like "take chi from the heavens and from the earth and mix them in the dantian" or other such mystical "explanations", the inquisitiveness of the guy will certainly not be satisfied.

I, for one, am willing to accept the explanation given by those traditional experts. For example, if some Taoist tells me that the Chi in my kidney is weak and therefore I won't be able to have good sex, then I will take his word as truth because this can be experienced. Or if someone says to me that while sleeping my throat chakra and my sexual chakra get stimulated; and the better the sleep is the healthier these organs will be for me. I will accept this explanation too because I know that when I have a good and deep sleep, I wake up in the morning with a "morning wood" and a heavier voice. So certain things become more clear only after experience. Words, concepts and ideas do not matter much when it comes to direct experience.