Speed of Opportunity

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby cloudz on Fri May 28, 2010 7:47 am

Chris I see that you included timing in the things you categorised and defined. But I can't tell if you're talking about something else or not with "speed of opportunity".

To me it's just simply "timing" ? And the things you categorized before you got to it all can be/are contributory factors to acheiving good timing. That might just be me being pedantic. I think all the prior definitions you made to timing were excellent btw.

I don't really have a lot to say - which may be just as well. There's not really much you can waffle about it in my opinion. It's something you improve at with the doing. What that entails shouldn't need all that much spelling out.. And you've done that adequately enough.

Anyway nice to see you back.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Dmitri on Fri May 28, 2010 8:01 am

Chris M wrote:There's raw velocity: how fast your limbs are moving as a function of distance per unit of time. There's acceleration: a measure of how quickly velocity increases per unit of time. There's distance-to-target: the closest weapon to a given target. There's also the difference between weapons which travel in a linear trajectory vs. those that describe an arc. There's perceptual speed: a measure of the lag between the occurrence of a cue to initiate movement and the actual initiation of that movement. There's timing: coordinating your movement with your opponent's such that you are out of harm's way, you blend seamlessly with his movement, and that your weapons arrive at just the precise correct moment.

I think one other factor might be missing -- your speed relative to the opponent's specific movement at the time of, or immediately prior to, the engagement.
(The "timing" bit addresses that somewhat, but one might be more clinical about it and take it into a separate "category". Or not. Just a thought anyway.)

Good to see you back... yet again... :)

Shooter wrote:For the newb, creating failure often involves a first day at training that doesn't go very well right off the hop. Before introductions are made they might be confronted about anything they may or may not have said or done in the five minutes prior. They're confronted with a disarming remark or question and then a verbal bluster, encroachment, maybe a fient or twitch. Most times that's enough. Sometimes it might involve physical contact.

When folks are more 'innured' to conflict, it takes a little more creativity. Most times we get talking about their work or pets or whatever disarms them. I start putting on some 16oz gloves and tell them we're going to work through some drills in a bit. Then suddenly some tool they just met 10 minutes ago is yelling and throwing punches at them. Kinda like that.

That's excellent. Do people come back after that? Any lawsuits? ;D

I sometimes to very similar things with some of the people in class, but not with everybody and probably not to THAT degree... And we don't graft directly upon their reaction; we see how it can "morph" into a better (more martially-relevant to the situation) movement that would be more in line with what we practice. Basically as a tool to learn to remain relatively calm and as emotionally-uninvolved into the conflict as possible.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Doc Stier on Fri May 28, 2010 8:28 am

Several interesting instructional methods and agendas have been outlined on this thread, and each undoubtedly works well for some students. However, no single method is likely to work well across the board as a "one size fits all" training program for all students, IMO. During the course of 35+ years of experience as a professional martial arts teacher, I have repeatedly observed and validated that the individual growth and development of each student ultimately requires a positively structured, specifically customized mode of instruction to insure individual success in learning and training. -shrug-

I find some of what has been presented here to be either overly dependent on conscious analysis and correction or overly dependent on potentially abusive and unnecessarily negative mind games. For those who advocate the latter method, I wonder whether you might also be manipulated in the same way by someone who is able to accurately assess your psychological triggers and your emotional attachments? Is anyone among us totally immune to such motivating influences? :-\

I submit that the man who has nothing left to lose may be the possible exception, but fortunately such individuals are rare, and make far better friends than enemies! ;)

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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Dmitri on Fri May 28, 2010 8:46 am

Doc Stier wrote:the individual growth and development of each student ultimately requires a positively structured, specifically customized mode of instruction to insure individual success in learning and training.


Agreed 100%.


For those who advocate the latter method, I wonder whether you might also be manipulated in the same way by someone who is able to accurately assess your psychological triggers and your emotional attachments?

Of course; we're all but imperfect humans. (Presuming reasonable levels of mental health of course... I'm sure Shooter would have some trouble pulling that off on a Hannibal Lecter. :))
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri May 28, 2010 9:20 am

I think Doc nailed it when he mentioned the person who has nothing to lose. Opportunity is what you make of it and the decision is yours when it arrises. In training and sparring , many times the emotion of civility is far to prevalent ie "should I or shouldn't I" "I don't want to hurt him", this even occurs on the street. If you are faced with life or death you must act immediately, and you must have the tools to do so, the speed of opportunity is in the decision. You train to develop the tools to act on your decisions. If your life or the safety of those you care about is the question you should no allow yourself to lose, to me this is the same as having nothing to lose , it's do or die.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby BruceP on Fri May 28, 2010 10:38 am

Dmitri, no lawsuits yet.

What some might see as 'potentially abusive' and negative is simply an exercise that covers the gamut of emotion, self-restraint, societal conditioning, etc, which hold us back when someone confronts us. "Hey buddy, you got the time?" or "You got a light?" "Why the f+(# did you steal my parking spot, asshole?"...common disarming techniques that lead up to sudden attack.

Decisiveness is something folks often deny themselves when they're in a confrontation that appears to be going south but hasn't taken that heading just yet. "Should I?" "Shouldn't I?" We're addressing that issue in a safe environment. We're looking for honest reaction and movement in real time. I'm not going to give that honesty if I know nobody's gonna hurt me. If I'm fairly certain that they are, I want the speed of opportunity to be in the moment. If I'm expectant, I'm not in the moment. It's pretty easy to understand and folks I train with get it on the first day. They want more of that honest exploration in their development and evolution. Personal Combat and Ownership is all about individuality. The honesty of the experiences one gains in exploring failure (in many different ways) points to the responsibility one must take in their own evolution. Seems like Gary is mistaking the technique for the goal.

Each of us brings something valuable to the group in what we've experienced and observed. We have/had LEOs, ex-cons, bouncers, combat athletes and everyone in between in our training group. Everyone's experiences are valuable and real. Afterall, we're all adults who know our own mind. I've been put in that same place as the first-timer and it's always been positive and instructive. It may come off sounding like bullying, but a bully seeks to rob folks of power. Our training group seeks to help folks cultivate power independently of the group. Forced ownership instead of deference. Equality and trust.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri May 28, 2010 10:47 am

George,

Thanks for the welcome back. The way I'm looking at it, all of these things are somewhat interrelated and have areas of overlap, so it's fair to say that some of everything I'm talking about can be boiled down to good timing. But the same could be said about good control of movement speed, or good positioning, or good structure, etc. IOW, timing by itself isn't all of it. One can have exquisite timing but lack the ability to generate just exactly the optimal total velocity to really capitalize on it. Or one can have great timing in classroom or sparring circumstances, but lack the perceptual speed in the real world to recognize and respond to the proper cues of a violent encounter. One could also have good timing but lack solid structure, delivery mechanics, or just sheer raw strength to achieve an optimal effect with one's strikes. To me, it's a package deal kind of thing.

RE: "There's not really much you can waffle about it in my opinion. It's something you improve at with the doing. What that entails shouldn't need all that much spelling out..". I would, of course, agree. Still, it's funny how for some folks on this forum, such an idea is so self-apparent and glaringly obvious as to be de rigeur as a topic for discussion, while for others, it's a novel concept that they are just now incorporating into their training. And for still others, it's enough of a threat to their comfortable conceptual framework of what constitutes "traditional" training (the only kind approved and therefore allowed for some) that it triggers cognitive dissonance behavior and they become very defensive, even openly hostile, about excluding that kind of training in their regimen. Oh well....experience has always separated the doers from the talkers, and combat is no different.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri May 28, 2010 11:06 am

Doc,

RE: "However, no single method is likely to work well across the board as a "one size fits all" training program for all students, IMO.". Agreed 100%. Certainly, speaking for myself, I've championed the notion of individually-tailored instruction in every area of my life for my entire adult life, and longer than that in the case of martial arts. The archives of this forum are filled with pages and pages of me going on ad nauseum about the need for such customization.

RE: "I find some of what has been presented here to be either overly dependent on conscious analysis and correction or overly dependent on potentially abusive and unnecessarily negative mind games.". Since I don't fall into the latter category, I'll assume you're referring to some of my methods with the former criticism. I'd be curious to read what you think of as being "overly dependent on conscious analysis and correction", and what you would prefer to substitute in its stead methodologically. Since I have remained relatively unspecified as to precise methods of achieving my objectives thus far in the thread, it's possible we may not disagree as much as might be being assumed.


Dmitri,

Thanks for the welcome back. I think that timing, relative motion and positioning could all be, to some degree, different viewing angles of the same basic elephant. From your description, it seems as if perhaps you are using a taste of Shooter's method and then tailoring the responses to the closest point of tangent within your own art. Is that somewhat accurate? That would be cool if you were in that very few TMA teachers start with the student where they are first, then guide them toward their art's material. Usually, it's "here's our art......anything else you're doing is wrong, and we won't bother to meet you where you are...we'll only acknowledge what you're doing as "correct" when you come all the way over to where we are first".
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri May 28, 2010 11:09 am

Wanderingdragon,

RE: " If you are faced with life or death you must act immediately, and you must have the tools to do so, the speed of opportunity is in the decision.". Many times that's exactly the case. Psycho-physical congruence to take the appropriate action at the appropriate level of intensity has to already be in place before the cues are given and recognized. Otherwise, you see a lot of hesitation or outright freezing.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri May 28, 2010 11:15 am

Shooter,

While I wouldn't say I'm becoming a convert, I think that your last post seemed a very heartfelt and powerful apologetic for your method. Your end goal, at least, is unassailable and extremely positive.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Dmitri on Fri May 28, 2010 11:25 am

Hey Chris,

It's not really 'my school' per se -- I'm just helping out... So I'm not allowed to do whatever I want, although I've been guilty of sneaking in some little bits that are not exactly in the curriculum, but which I believe help people 'get' things better.

I'm still exploring all this stuff, and right now I'm somewhere in-between the two "extremes" that you ("here's how you must do it, period!") and Bruce ("let me see what you have and we'll take it from there") outlined, and as I continue to get more into what Feldenkrais was talking/writing about I'm guessing the changes will continue, possibly (just possibly) more towards what Bruce has been doing... I dunno. I definitely see a great deal of value in how and what we do teach, which indeed involves doing some very "unnatural" things to your body and mind as part of regular practice. Whether all that will come out under extreme pressure -- I really don't know until I actually do get into a serious situation, like interrupting a home invasion/burglary. (Which I of course hope I'll never have to go through.)
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri May 28, 2010 11:58 am

Dmitri,

The biggest disappointment I have with how I have communicated on this thread is that you seem to actually believe that I am advocating some form of one-size-fits-all method. I kinda pride myself on being one of the most loud-mouthed pariahs/challengers to that very traditional TCIMA approach in the entire community. What exactly about what I've typed has led you to believe this is something that I would endorse? Like I just mentioned to Doc Stier, this forum's archives are chock full of pages of my writings to the direct, evidence-based contrary of that philosophy. This is truly troublesome....if me of all people is coming across as a one-size-fits-all guy, I must have been away from posting for waaaay too long. :P
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby BruceP on Fri May 28, 2010 12:39 pm

Chris, your concept, Speed of Opportunity, and the means to realizing its fullest potential is a very good topic. We both agree that 'threshold of intensity' is key. No mystery to anyone who has done the work. I've shown how I get folks to their perceptual threshold(s) and tried to explain why I do that first - it's the most common first point of failure in sudden violent attacks, muggings, alpha affimration, whatever. More importantly, the exercise is a tool to get the person responding and moving in the moment.

Anyway, I hope the discussion can get back to that body of work. All the pieces (timing, position, etc) don't matter so much and are actually non-issues once the concept is experienced in real time.

It'd be cool to see how other folks work at passing through those thresholds to acquire Speed of Opportunity.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Dmitri on Fri May 28, 2010 1:08 pm

What exactly about what I've typed has led you to believe this is something that I would endorse?


Dude... you HAVE been away for too long. ;D

Nah... The problem was in my presentation/reference. I was not referring to your original ideas, but to this:
Chris McKinley wrote:very few TMA teachers start with the student where they are first, then guide them toward their art's material. Usually, it's "here's our art......anything else you're doing is wrong, and we won't bother to meet you where you are...we'll only acknowledge what you're doing as "correct" when you come all the way over to where we are first".


Sorry I should have definitely worded that reference differently.

So no, you're not a complete failure after all... ;D
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Bhassler on Fri May 28, 2010 2:10 pm

Shooter wrote:Chris, your concept, Speed of Opportunity, and the means to realizing its fullest potential is a very good topic. We both agree that 'threshold of intensity' is key. No mystery to anyone who has done the work. I've shown how I get folks to their perceptual threshold(s) and tried to explain why I do that first - it's the most common first point of failure in sudden violent attacks, muggings, alpha affimration, whatever. More importantly, the exercise is a tool to get the person responding and moving in the moment.

Anyway, I hope the discussion can get back to that body of work. All the pieces (timing, position, etc) don't matter so much and are actually non-issues once the concept is experienced in real time.

It'd be cool to see how other folks work at passing through those thresholds to acquire Speed of Opportunity.


A more general discussion of cognitive aspects of failure (viewed in part through the lens of Feldenkrais work) can be found here: http://semiophysics.com/SemioPhysics_article_know.html

One thing I find interesting (about this discussion, not the link I posted) is the differentiation of the process from the context-- as can be seen by the multiple effective methods presented here, the two are not one and the same. I'm curious as to how much of each is necessary. Context without process is abuse. Process without context lacks reliability. I know the appropriate amount of each will vary between individuals and activities (context matters very little in solving mathematical equations, but matters greatly in personal relationships, for example). An understanding of each and the role it plays in one's training (or life) might offer some interesting possibilities for expansion and growth in areas inclusive of but not limited to MA and combatives.
What I'm after isn't flexible bodies, but flexible brains.
--Moshe Feldenkrais
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