Speed of Opportunity

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Mon May 31, 2010 8:32 pm

I'm not following that logic, john. Uncontrolled throwing can be every bit as potentially injurious as striking. Further, there is no assumption that in all cases you will be controlling your force and your opponent will not be.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby humbleboxer on Mon May 31, 2010 10:08 pm

thanks for the responses. as for the baiting comments, just having a little fun. this is all good natured disagreement, right? I picked the name humbleboxer to remind myself to keep things in perspective not to be Kwai Khang Caine. I can usually tell where someone "is at" Physically or intellectually by how seriously they respond to baiting. I knew when I brought up some of the negatives about sparring the part I wrote about the proper amount would get over looked. I am not against sparring. you need it on some level. only the self deluded would think otherwise. I just disagree about the amount that is necessary in relationship to the amount of solo practice for self defense or sport. I really don't feel the need to test myself anymore. I work out and teach at a gym that is full of Boxers, BJJ-er, MMA-ers, Muay Thai-ers and cocky young studs. I have come to terms with what I know I can do and what I can't. I also really got tired of holding back my power, not breaking fingers, not hitting someone in the balls or not attacking soft spots when the opening was there for the taking. my training and instincts are geared towards hurting someone not defeating them. I have used these techniques in real situations and gently during sparring. they worked best when I had the intention of hurting someone. using them during sparring was revealing for both of us. a little bit goes a long way for me at this point. I check periodically to see where my skills are at and I move on. others may feel the need to do it more often. I have no problem with that especially if you are competing.

"the first major concern... - protecting your heath is the number one goal of self defense. you can just as easily get hurt in solo practice as you can sparring. I've punched and kicked trees and knew when it became redundant. not saying don't do it. just be aware of its limitations. not ever fighting and thinking you can beat a fighter with ease is just as dumb as thinking that sparring or sport can replicate real situations. please address some of my examples in the other post specifically. I would like to hear your opinions.

right attitude and approach - idealistic or not I try to put my entire focus into everything I do when I practice. my conditioning, solo practice, 2 man practice, sparring, meditation. it is my goal to perfect this mental state. I don't think one way for solo practice, another way for 2 man, etc. to me it is all the same.

drilling through repetition and conditioning the body with foundation training is only limited by your own abilities. - I can practice anything I am capable of without restriction. just me and my shadow. failing or succeeding to accomplish my goal/technique is solely based on my actions. totally independent of outside influences.

your rear-hand boxing parry training - agreed, but emphasize that my ability to parry starts with the perfection of the movement solo first.

Mindset, focus, relaxation - for myself, training for the ultimate imaginary conflict that I think sparring can replicate became unnecessary. BTDT. I have enough practical experience from living and training to realize conflict is always the unknown. when the time comes you either do what you need to do or you don't. I have found that harnessing your will to do something involves much more about you than your ability to impose it on someone else. solo practice allows for total honesty with yourself.

In both cases; no matter how good a state the mind is in when there is an opportunity, if there is not some kind of previous experience in a similar enough circumstance or enough time for the person to adjust on the fly, an effective use of the opportunity is not very likely or nearly impossible. - totally disagree. some of the best techniques I have used I never practiced on another person. example - while sparring and getting mount I laughingly posted up to bring down simulated punches. while i was trying to be funny I got reversed. something inside me said no f-ing way and I immediately grabbed both of his ears twisted his head and put him on his back. my state of mind was to get out of the situation and I did. never practiced the move before on someone. it is similar to horizontal cloud hands/wheeling hands. these situations have happened enough for me that I always thank my Teacher for teaching me good basics.

looking forward to all of your lame ass replies, LOL
Last edited by humbleboxer on Mon May 31, 2010 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby RobT on Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:44 am

Two of the things I took from fencing were the benefits of sparring a lot (and with different people) to get through the conscious processing stage so the mind was "just doing" rather than "thinking first", and an understanding of (and technical drills around) the "cycle" of attack and defense. This goes something like:

Direct attack
Parry-riposte (or block - counter in less fencing specific terminology)
Indirect attack (attack the open line, as it closes with the parry, switch to the now opening line to decieve the parry)
Counter attack (the indirect attack/ compound action takes time, as they switch lines, counter straight into them)
Second intention (start the indirect action, looking to draw the counter - as it comes in, parry-riposte)
Counter with compound action (second intention draws the counter, but this time feint into the open line and as they close it switch into the now opening line to decieve the parry)

Whereupon you're back to quick simple direct attack again. Most of the time this was some sort of OODA loop, but with the observation being some error the opponent routinely does, orientation being how to trigger this mistake by my own actions, decision being how to exploit this... and then effectively to prime the body to act next time it occurs. One of course needs to be careful not to focus solely on that "he does x I do y" and be able to adapt to change, but it is something like "next time he does x I do y" which speeds up the process.

Over time this becomes less of a conscious planned event, and more of an apparently spontaneous "in the moment" event. Although curiously one is always able to explain exactly what happened afterwards, even though it "just happens" without that conscious thought process during (OODA is happening automatically). This is why the first few actions in a fencing bout are a little bit of too and fro with footwork trying to control distance and a few threats with the blade... seeing how the opponent acts and reacts, and therefore what weaknesses exist that can be exploited. It is important during this not to focus on just the blade (beginners mistake) but to include the whole person (footwork, body structure and balance, how the hand-shoulder-body-feet co-ordinate in the action etc.)

Does this transfer to emptyhand stuff? In my experience it certainly does for sparring in MT which is a similar 1-1 controlled space (ring) format. "Show them the big right cross and hit them with the left uppercut" would be a classic example if they tend to immediately cover to protect against the direct action (common when you first get in the ring... particularly if you've rocked their world with a few crosses first). etc. etc.

Does it transfer to "self defence" or multiple opponent situations? Yes - it helps you be aware of the developing situation and so avoid it, or to position yourself within it before it kicks off. Yes - the time spent sparring and working the loop brings fruit. But no - if you're still at the conscious process stage, it is likely you will over-think and take too long or freeze. Hence low-level self-defence is a small number of pre-planned actions, drilled so as to be reflex (he does x I do y). High-level needs to do the other stuff to be able to flow (it doesn't matter what he does).

Just a few thoughts from my experience.
RT
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:54 am

humbleboxer,

You kinda ruined it for me by deciding to toss in at the end, "looking forward to all of your lame ass replies, LOL". You've been given very respectful and thought out replies thus far and are choosing to respond from a personal argument POV. That's too bad. It's also unfortunate that you seemed to begin the conversation with an assumption of disagreement, however good-natured. Mostly because I'm finding a lot to agree with in what you've written. Where I have specific disagreement or am unsure about the point you are making, I have stated so flatly.

You are presenting an impression that you seem to think that you might have a level of experience that a) perhaps requires you to call yourself humbleboxer in order to remind yourself not to assume you know better than we do, and b) is considerably above any of our own due to your teaching and training in an MMA gym. If you do not intend to present this impression or do not think you are presenting this impression then perhaps I am out of line and you have my apologies.

However, if you want any further adult discussion of the issues of this thread, I suggest pre-qualifying them as "lame ass" might not be the most useful thing you could do, neh?
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:07 am

Deus,

Great point about the reticence to hit or be hit caused by a lack of confidence in one's or one's partner's level of control. Also nice description of the difference between being able to spot opportunities quickly and the physical familiarity to actually capitalize on them.


RobT,

Excellent, meaty examples from fencing that are directly useful in empty hand sparring situations. People will sometimes criticize the fencing terminology for being overly technical/analytical, but for the advanced student stuck in a rut of the same ripostes/counters, this level of analysis helps determine where new points of choice can be inserted and new learning begun, whether fencer or empty-hand fighter. Fencing's analytical model is a coach's friend.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:51 am

I think the fencing example paints an excellent picture of knowing your opportunities by creation, as well as seeking opportunity by knowledge of your opponent, your opportunities are always in your hands, to prevail in conflict you must control the situation.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby RobT on Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:24 am

My old coach would say: "the most important things in fencing are distance, timing, change of speed, and speed itself... in that order - of course you must also have perfect technique to execute your actions".

People tend to forget that controlling distance and indeed timing are things that you can train in their own right (the former is perhaps more obvious than the later, but timing does have a distinct "feel" of tempo that can be learnt through the right exercises). "Breaking the oponents time" by getting them to "freeze" in the middle of an action is a good example. And numerous times did I point out when coaching that "if you move a large distance quickly, I'll still hit you first by moving a small distance precisely" (i.e. time = distance / speed).

As wanderdragon notes, it is far quicker to a respond to an opportunity you have created by getting your opponent to react the way you want them to. As Sun Tzu has it "first win, then seek to join battle". I regularly used to beat folks who were better than I... by getting them to fence me at my game and not theirs (classic "match your strengths to their weaknesses" stuff). Hence knowing your own strengths, and training how to create the opportunities to apply them, are equally important.

This also meant I was an OK referee, as I could see what was going on. Hence one of the best way of improving your sparring is to watch others sparring, and deconstruct what is going on in terms of distance, timing etc.

RT
Last edited by RobT on Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:00 am

DeusTrismegistus wrote:With regard to this idea. The fear of sparring comes from lack of control. This is the first thing that must be taught so that proper sparring can occur. The problem is that control in a sparring environment requires you to practice sparring. This is why beginner's should be more dangerous to spar at higher intensity than senior partners in the training hall. I completely trust anyone at my school who wears a brown belt (yes we have belts) or higher to not hurt me at pretty much any intensity because I KNOW they have the control to not do so, to stop a strike on a dime, and adjust in real time on the fly. I don't know if it still exists but there was a Properly Structured Sparring thread a long while back that addressed this topic at length.

Also learning bad habits is a bad and pathetic excuse to not spar or engage in partner work regularly. The benefits of practicing in this context far outweigh any bad habits that might be created and the familiarity with contact and pressure will be more helpful if something real happens than having a less couple less than perfect or even disadvantageous habits. Besides that it is only through practice with a partner that those bad habits can be refined and eliminated or turned into beneficial habits.

Another thing I want to address. Is the training necessary to be able to take advantage of an opportunity. In the striking side of the coin it is a matter of being able to use the right strike to attack the open target automatically without hesitation. This can be considerably variable as the relative position of your body and the other person's is constantly changing and as near as we can probably get to infinitely variable. With regards to throwing the variables are more easily controlled however a throw is usually a more complicated action.

In both cases; no matter how good a state the mind is in when there is an opportunity, if there is not some kind of previous experience in a similar enough circumstance or enough time for the person to adjust on the fly, an effective use of the opportunity is not very likely or nearly impossible.



Hitting someone with full power and following through with strikes can and does create new open targets and opportunities and drastically changes their relative position to your own body, giving you the advantage.

.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:07 am

humbleboxer wrote:C Mc C sorry for being non specific. my posting time is generally done in short bursts so I don't always have time to read and analyze all of the responses. the general theme for this post and some of the others floating around seems to be about the importance of practical hands on training vs. solo practice. I see 2 basic trains of thought on how much is necessary and effective. my experience has been that training varies constantly according to your goals, your present needs and how much time you can realistically devote to developing your self. these factors vary from person to person for many different reasons. getting locked in to one way of thinking for me limits my growth. balance has always kept me on the path I have chosen.

now to get specific. and once again I apologize for any repetition. I do not train for sport so my attitude is slightly different than those who wish to compete. in my experience there are limitations to sparring and partner practice. the proper amount will keep you sharp, build confidence and allow you to test your ability to perform technique. to much of it and you will reach a point of diminishing returns from the limitations. this approach is shared by both my martial arts teacher of 30 yrs. and my boxing coach for just under the last 2 years. the first major concern is injury. getting hurt prevents training which in turn slows down the learning process. the second is learning bad habits. you can get to used to doing things that work under the conditions of the practice. when the conditions change it is more difficult to switch to different techniques that are required. examples are - training with the same people, getting over confident, using safety equipment, not ever using your full force, having rules on which techniques you can use (and for all of the IMA people out there - it can obscure some of the wonderful benefits of practicing to improve yourself as a person). this is where solo practice is so important. if you keep the right attitude and approach it is shouldn't be any different than training with a partner. drilling through repetition and conditioning the body with foundation training is only limited by your own abilities. I can throw, punch, kick, etc. full force without having to be concerned about anything except how well I am doing the techniques. I'll use my boxing training as an example, learning how to parry a jab with the rear hand (almost a lost art). before I learned the parry I had to learn a proper boxing stance. first my coach shows me the parry. than I repeat what he showed me over and over. next we put on the gloves (which I have gotten used to but still prefer bare hand) and he feeds me punches. then I practice solo again over and over. next time he feeds me punches gradually building up his speed and tries to hit me (his vertical jab is hard to see before you get hit). then back to solo practice. next I spar with someone else who really wants to show me that I can't stop his jab. this process goes on and on but if I don't practice and perfect the movement solo, my form is weak. my ability to parry starts with the perfection of the movement first. working with my coach or sparring partner is for timing, confidence and the ability to adjust the movement to the punch. now getting deeper in to the parry there are other factors - mindset, focus and relaxation. without these elements it really doesn't matter how well I can physically perform the movement. more solo practice. meditation is the best exercise for building these elements as skills. it can be seated, standing, lying or moving (practicing Tai Chi Chuan forms). at this point in my training I perform better physically the more I develop my mindset, focus and relaxation through solo practice. the best way for you to find out if it works for you is to devote enough time to doing it to have an opinion based on experience. thanks for taking the bait ;-)

...[***]...

thanks for the responses. as for the baiting comments, just having a little fun. this is all good natured disagreement, right? I picked the name humbleboxer to remind myself to keep things in perspective not to be Kwai Khang Caine. I can usually tell where someone "is at" Physically or intellectually by how seriously they respond to baiting. I knew when I brought up some of the negatives about sparring the part I wrote about the proper amount would get over looked. I am not against sparring. you need it on some level. only the self deluded would think otherwise. I just disagree about the amount that is necessary in relationship to the amount of solo practice for self defense or sport. I really don't feel the need to test myself anymore. I work out and teach at a gym that is full of Boxers, BJJ-er, MMA-ers, Muay Thai-ers and cocky young studs. I have come to terms with what I know I can do and what I can't. I also really got tired of holding back my power, not breaking fingers, not hitting someone in the balls or not attacking soft spots when the opening was there for the taking. my training and instincts are geared towards hurting someone not defeating them. I have used these techniques in real situations and gently during sparring. they worked best when I had the intention of hurting someone. using them during sparring was revealing for both of us. a little bit goes a long way for me at this point. I check periodically to see where my skills are at and I move on. others may feel the need to do it more often. I have no problem with that especially if you are competing.

"the first major concern... - protecting your heath is the number one goal of self defense. you can just as easily get hurt in solo practice as you can sparring. I've punched and kicked trees and knew when it became redundant. not saying don't do it. just be aware of its limitations. not ever fighting and thinking you can beat a fighter with ease is just as dumb as thinking that sparring or sport can replicate real situations. please address some of my examples in the other post specifically. I would like to hear your opinions.

right attitude and approach - idealistic or not I try to put my entire focus into everything I do when I practice. my conditioning, solo practice, 2 man practice, sparring, meditation. it is my goal to perfect this mental state. I don't think one way for solo practice, another way for 2 man, etc. to me it is all the same.

drilling through repetition and conditioning the body with foundation training is only limited by your own abilities. - I can practice anything I am capable of without restriction. just me and my shadow. failing or succeeding to accomplish my goal/technique is solely based on my actions. totally independent of outside influences.

your rear-hand boxing parry training - agreed, but emphasize that my ability to parry starts with the perfection of the movement solo first.

Mindset, focus, relaxation - for myself, training for the ultimate imaginary conflict that I think sparring can replicate became unnecessary. BTDT. I have enough practical experience from living and training to realize conflict is always the unknown. when the time comes you either do what you need to do or you don't. I have found that harnessing your will to do something involves much more about you than your ability to impose it on someone else. solo practice allows for total honesty with yourself.

In both cases; no matter how good a state the mind is in when there is an opportunity, if there is not some kind of previous experience in a similar enough circumstance or enough time for the person to adjust on the fly, an effective use of the opportunity is not very likely or nearly impossible. - totally disagree. some of the best techniques I have used I never practiced on another person. example - while sparring and getting mount I laughingly posted up to bring down simulated punches. while i was trying to be funny I got reversed. something inside me said no f-ing way and I immediately grabbed both of his ears twisted his head and put him on his back. my state of mind was to get out of the situation and I did. never practiced the move before on someone. it is similar to horizontal cloud hands/wheeling hands. these situations have happened enough for me that I always thank my Teacher for teaching me good basics.

looking forward to all of your lame ass replies, LOL



Excellent posts.

QFT - Quoted for the truth.

.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:02 pm

D_Glenn,

RE: "Hitting someone with full power and following through with strikes can and does create new open targets and opportunities and drastically changes their relative position to your own body, giving you the advantage.". Yeah, it sure does......except, of course, when it doesn't. For those times, you need more than just one tool in your toolbox. I don't think anybody's yet claimed that hitting somebody really hard doesn't contain the possibility of creating new opportunities. That would seem to be a matter of common sense. However, if that's all you've got, you're gonna get taken apart fairly quickly and regularly by experienced fighters, assuming you do much fighting for whatever reason. That, too, is a matter of common sense.

What we're discussing here is how all of these factors, including the ability to hit hard enough to create openings, affects the ability to not just create opportunities, but to capitalize on them as they arise organically.

As for the QFT on humbleboxer's posts, I kinda feel similarly, at least about some of his material. I hope we can keep the conversation from getting too ad hominem because there are some good ideas to discuss in there.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby D_Glenn on Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:39 pm

Chris McKinley wrote:D_Glenn,

RE: "Hitting someone with full power and following through with strikes can and does create new open targets and opportunities and drastically changes their relative position to your own body, giving you the advantage.". Yeah, it sure does......except, of course, when it doesn't. For those times, you need more than just one tool in your toolbox. I don't think anybody's yet claimed that hitting somebody really hard doesn't contain the possibility of creating new opportunities. That would seem to be a matter of common sense. However, if that's all you've got, you're gonna get taken apart fairly quickly and regularly by experienced fighters, assuming you do much fighting for whatever reason. That, too, is a matter of common sense.

What we're discussing here is how all of these factors, including the ability to hit hard enough to create openings, affects the ability to not just create opportunities, but to capitalize on them as they arise organically.

As for the QFT on humbleboxer's posts, I kinda feel similarly, at least about some of his material. I hope we can keep the conversation from getting too ad hominem because there are some good ideas to discuss in there.



The irony is that your reply is an ad hominem attack against me.

My statement to Deus somehow gets distorted into me having no common sense? I'm going to get taken apart by any experienced fighter? Assuming that I can actually fight, or do fight? And that I only have one tool in my toolbox? :-\


.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby Chris McKinley on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:49 pm

D_Glenn,

RE: "The irony is that your reply is an ad hominem attack against me.". I assure you it was not meant as such, and you have my full apologies. I deviated from my usual use of the more universal "one" and instead used the pronoun "you" in making my points. It was an attempt at keeping the conversation casual and was in no way directed toward you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Also, my use of comparison between being able to hit with full power and other equally valuable tools was meant to clarify and define the starting point for the discussion. Although I now realize I was mistaken, it seemed to me that my contrasting of two such obvious and self-apparent points (that hitting hard can create opportunities and that hitting hard alone is not sufficient) would be seen in the light that they are not mutually exclusive and that constructive discussion can be had regarding both concepts simultaneously, since this thread started as an off-shoot of one where hitting with full power was being discussed. Once again, my apologies for not making that more clear and for leading you to believe that I was levelling an insult at you.
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby TrainingDummy on Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:05 am

Shooter wrote:Decisiveness is something folks often deny themselves when they're in a confrontation that appears to be going south but hasn't taken that heading just yet. "Should I?" "Shouldn't I?" We're addressing that issue in a safe environment. We're looking for honest reaction and movement in real time. I'm not going to give that honesty if I know nobody's gonna hurt me. If I'm fairly certain that they are, I want the speed of opportunity to be in the moment. If I'm expectant, I'm not in the moment. It's pretty easy to understand and folks I train with get it on the first day. They want more of that honest exploration in their development and evolution. Personal Combat and Ownership is all about individuality. The honesty of the experiences one gains in exploring failure (in many different ways) points to the responsibility one must take in their own evolution.


Shooter,

From your descriptions it sounds like the process is very intuitive on your part and difficult to describe without first hand contact. However I'll try to tease out the method a little further if you don't mind.

From my previous RBT experience I've noticed that when you get someone into that fear reaction they do quite well with staying in the moment, until physical or emotional fatigue set in. At that point "default" habits set in, the trainee gets tense, their structure falls apart and they end up forcing the same 3 or 4 techniques on each of their sparring partners. This experience is useful on occasion since it shows you your default skill set and gets you to experience the will to go on whilst being physically or emotionally exhausted, but I personally feel it's not good weekly training since your not improving your technique vocabulary or working on the speed of opportunity.

So how do you keep your training partners in the moment and alive to opportunity, if they are continually in a place of failure and on the edge of falling apart during the training?
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:26 am

D_Glenn wrote:

Hitting someone with full power and following through with strikes can and does create new open targets and opportunities and drastically changes their relative position to your own body, giving you the advantage.

.


I am not sure how exactly you are relating this to the highlighted portion when you quoted me? Would you mind clarifying or going into more detail?
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Re: Speed of Opportunity

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:31 am

humbleboxer wrote:
In both cases; no matter how good a state the mind is in when there is an opportunity, if there is not some kind of previous experience in a similar enough circumstance or enough time for the person to adjust on the fly, an effective use of the opportunity is not very likely or nearly impossible. - totally disagree. some of the best techniques I have used I never practiced on another person. example - while sparring and getting mount I laughingly posted up to bring down simulated punches. while i was trying to be funny I got reversed. something inside me said no f-ing way and I immediately grabbed both of his ears twisted his head and put him on his back. my state of mind was to get out of the situation and I did. never practiced the move before on someone. it is similar to horizontal cloud hands/wheeling hands. these situations have happened enough for me that I always thank my Teacher for teaching me good basics.

looking forward to all of your lame ass replies, LOL


You will notice I said OR enough time for a person to adjust on the fly. Obviously you had enough time for you to adjust on the fly. Eventually the skill to do that can learn to be done at full speed. I feel that is one of the specific things that CMA trains and particularly taijiquan. However the ability to adjust on the fly varies drastically with experience and natural ability.
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