DeusTrismegistus wrote:With regard to this idea. The fear of sparring comes from lack of control. This is the first thing that must be taught so that proper sparring can occur. The problem is that control in a sparring environment requires you to practice sparring. This is why beginner's should be more dangerous to spar at higher intensity than senior partners in the training hall. I completely trust anyone at my school who wears a brown belt (yes we have belts) or higher to not hurt me at pretty much any intensity because I KNOW they have the control to not do so, to stop a strike on a dime, and adjust in real time on the fly. I don't know if it still exists but there was a Properly Structured Sparring thread a long while back that addressed this topic at length.
Also learning bad habits is a bad and pathetic excuse to not spar or engage in partner work regularly. The benefits of practicing in this context far outweigh any bad habits that might be created and the familiarity with contact and pressure will be more helpful if something real happens than having a less couple less than perfect or even disadvantageous habits. Besides that it is only through practice with a partner that those bad habits can be refined and eliminated or turned into beneficial habits.
Another thing I want to address. Is the training necessary to be able to take advantage of an opportunity. In the striking side of the coin it is a matter of being able to use the right strike to attack the open target automatically without hesitation. This can be considerably variable as the relative position of your body and the other person's is constantly changing and as near as we can probably get to infinitely variable. With regards to throwing the variables are more easily controlled however a throw is usually a more complicated action.
In both cases; no matter how good a state the mind is in when there is an opportunity, if there is not some kind of previous experience in a similar enough circumstance or enough time for the person to adjust on the fly, an effective use of the opportunity is not very likely or nearly impossible.
humbleboxer wrote:C Mc C sorry for being non specific. my posting time is generally done in short bursts so I don't always have time to read and analyze all of the responses. the general theme for this post and some of the others floating around seems to be about the importance of practical hands on training vs. solo practice. I see 2 basic trains of thought on how much is necessary and effective. my experience has been that training varies constantly according to your goals, your present needs and how much time you can realistically devote to developing your self. these factors vary from person to person for many different reasons. getting locked in to one way of thinking for me limits my growth. balance has always kept me on the path I have chosen.
now to get specific. and once again I apologize for any repetition. I do not train for sport so my attitude is slightly different than those who wish to compete. in my experience there are limitations to sparring and partner practice. the proper amount will keep you sharp, build confidence and allow you to test your ability to perform technique. to much of it and you will reach a point of diminishing returns from the limitations. this approach is shared by both my martial arts teacher of 30 yrs. and my boxing coach for just under the last 2 years. the first major concern is injury. getting hurt prevents training which in turn slows down the learning process. the second is learning bad habits. you can get to used to doing things that work under the conditions of the practice. when the conditions change it is more difficult to switch to different techniques that are required. examples are - training with the same people, getting over confident, using safety equipment, not ever using your full force, having rules on which techniques you can use (and for all of the IMA people out there - it can obscure some of the wonderful benefits of practicing to improve yourself as a person). this is where solo practice is so important. if you keep the right attitude and approach it is shouldn't be any different than training with a partner. drilling through repetition and conditioning the body with foundation training is only limited by your own abilities. I can throw, punch, kick, etc. full force without having to be concerned about anything except how well I am doing the techniques. I'll use my boxing training as an example, learning how to parry a jab with the rear hand (almost a lost art). before I learned the parry I had to learn a proper boxing stance. first my coach shows me the parry. than I repeat what he showed me over and over. next we put on the gloves (which I have gotten used to but still prefer bare hand) and he feeds me punches. then I practice solo again over and over. next time he feeds me punches gradually building up his speed and tries to hit me (his vertical jab is hard to see before you get hit). then back to solo practice. next I spar with someone else who really wants to show me that I can't stop his jab. this process goes on and on but if I don't practice and perfect the movement solo, my form is weak. my ability to parry starts with the perfection of the movement first. working with my coach or sparring partner is for timing, confidence and the ability to adjust the movement to the punch. now getting deeper in to the parry there are other factors - mindset, focus and relaxation. without these elements it really doesn't matter how well I can physically perform the movement. more solo practice. meditation is the best exercise for building these elements as skills. it can be seated, standing, lying or moving (practicing Tai Chi Chuan forms). at this point in my training I perform better physically the more I develop my mindset, focus and relaxation through solo practice. the best way for you to find out if it works for you is to devote enough time to doing it to have an opinion based on experience. thanks for taking the bait ;-)
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thanks for the responses. as for the baiting comments, just having a little fun. this is all good natured disagreement, right? I picked the name humbleboxer to remind myself to keep things in perspective not to be Kwai Khang Caine. I can usually tell where someone "is at" Physically or intellectually by how seriously they respond to baiting. I knew when I brought up some of the negatives about sparring the part I wrote about the proper amount would get over looked. I am not against sparring. you need it on some level. only the self deluded would think otherwise. I just disagree about the amount that is necessary in relationship to the amount of solo practice for self defense or sport. I really don't feel the need to test myself anymore. I work out and teach at a gym that is full of Boxers, BJJ-er, MMA-ers, Muay Thai-ers and cocky young studs. I have come to terms with what I know I can do and what I can't. I also really got tired of holding back my power, not breaking fingers, not hitting someone in the balls or not attacking soft spots when the opening was there for the taking. my training and instincts are geared towards hurting someone not defeating them. I have used these techniques in real situations and gently during sparring. they worked best when I had the intention of hurting someone. using them during sparring was revealing for both of us. a little bit goes a long way for me at this point. I check periodically to see where my skills are at and I move on. others may feel the need to do it more often. I have no problem with that especially if you are competing.
"the first major concern... - protecting your heath is the number one goal of self defense. you can just as easily get hurt in solo practice as you can sparring. I've punched and kicked trees and knew when it became redundant. not saying don't do it. just be aware of its limitations. not ever fighting and thinking you can beat a fighter with ease is just as dumb as thinking that sparring or sport can replicate real situations. please address some of my examples in the other post specifically. I would like to hear your opinions.
right attitude and approach - idealistic or not I try to put my entire focus into everything I do when I practice. my conditioning, solo practice, 2 man practice, sparring, meditation. it is my goal to perfect this mental state. I don't think one way for solo practice, another way for 2 man, etc. to me it is all the same.
drilling through repetition and conditioning the body with foundation training is only limited by your own abilities. - I can practice anything I am capable of without restriction. just me and my shadow. failing or succeeding to accomplish my goal/technique is solely based on my actions. totally independent of outside influences.
your rear-hand boxing parry training - agreed, but emphasize that my ability to parry starts with the perfection of the movement solo first.
Mindset, focus, relaxation - for myself, training for the ultimate imaginary conflict that I think sparring can replicate became unnecessary. BTDT. I have enough practical experience from living and training to realize conflict is always the unknown. when the time comes you either do what you need to do or you don't. I have found that harnessing your will to do something involves much more about you than your ability to impose it on someone else. solo practice allows for total honesty with yourself.
In both cases; no matter how good a state the mind is in when there is an opportunity, if there is not some kind of previous experience in a similar enough circumstance or enough time for the person to adjust on the fly, an effective use of the opportunity is not very likely or nearly impossible. - totally disagree. some of the best techniques I have used I never practiced on another person. example - while sparring and getting mount I laughingly posted up to bring down simulated punches. while i was trying to be funny I got reversed. something inside me said no f-ing way and I immediately grabbed both of his ears twisted his head and put him on his back. my state of mind was to get out of the situation and I did. never practiced the move before on someone. it is similar to horizontal cloud hands/wheeling hands. these situations have happened enough for me that I always thank my Teacher for teaching me good basics.
looking forward to all of your lame ass replies, LOL
Chris McKinley wrote:D_Glenn,
RE: "Hitting someone with full power and following through with strikes can and does create new open targets and opportunities and drastically changes their relative position to your own body, giving you the advantage.". Yeah, it sure does......except, of course, when it doesn't. For those times, you need more than just one tool in your toolbox. I don't think anybody's yet claimed that hitting somebody really hard doesn't contain the possibility of creating new opportunities. That would seem to be a matter of common sense. However, if that's all you've got, you're gonna get taken apart fairly quickly and regularly by experienced fighters, assuming you do much fighting for whatever reason. That, too, is a matter of common sense.
What we're discussing here is how all of these factors, including the ability to hit hard enough to create openings, affects the ability to not just create opportunities, but to capitalize on them as they arise organically.
As for the QFT on humbleboxer's posts, I kinda feel similarly, at least about some of his material. I hope we can keep the conversation from getting too ad hominem because there are some good ideas to discuss in there.
Shooter wrote:Decisiveness is something folks often deny themselves when they're in a confrontation that appears to be going south but hasn't taken that heading just yet. "Should I?" "Shouldn't I?" We're addressing that issue in a safe environment. We're looking for honest reaction and movement in real time. I'm not going to give that honesty if I know nobody's gonna hurt me. If I'm fairly certain that they are, I want the speed of opportunity to be in the moment. If I'm expectant, I'm not in the moment. It's pretty easy to understand and folks I train with get it on the first day. They want more of that honest exploration in their development and evolution. Personal Combat and Ownership is all about individuality. The honesty of the experiences one gains in exploring failure (in many different ways) points to the responsibility one must take in their own evolution.
D_Glenn wrote:
Hitting someone with full power and following through with strikes can and does create new open targets and opportunities and drastically changes their relative position to your own body, giving you the advantage.
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humbleboxer wrote:
In both cases; no matter how good a state the mind is in when there is an opportunity, if there is not some kind of previous experience in a similar enough circumstance or enough time for the person to adjust on the fly, an effective use of the opportunity is not very likely or nearly impossible. - totally disagree. some of the best techniques I have used I never practiced on another person. example - while sparring and getting mount I laughingly posted up to bring down simulated punches. while i was trying to be funny I got reversed. something inside me said no f-ing way and I immediately grabbed both of his ears twisted his head and put him on his back. my state of mind was to get out of the situation and I did. never practiced the move before on someone. it is similar to horizontal cloud hands/wheeling hands. these situations have happened enough for me that I always thank my Teacher for teaching me good basics.
looking forward to all of your lame ass replies, LOL
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