LHBF by Master Mo

[drifting]

I am not well versed with Chinese or Martial Tradition, but as Grandmaster, would there be a traditional photo of Master Mo with Master Chen

I wonder if I didn't misinterpret that, along with what preceded it. In case I did, then yes there are photos.

Grandmaster Wu taught Liu He Ba Fa to over twenty-five people who eventually became masters.
Later on, he appointed Chan Yik-Yan as his successor.

Ummm, Wu was actually known to have taught over 1000 people, many who were already masters and many more became so. I dont know where you heard "he appointed Chan Yik Yan as his successor" but I'm sure alot of other lineages would have something to say about that.

[Doc Stier]

Grandmaster Wu taught Liu He Ba Fa to over twenty-five people who eventually became masters.
Later on, he appointed Chan Yik-Yan as his successor.

Ummm, Wu was actually known to have taught over 1000 people, many who were already masters and many more became so. I dont know where you heard "he appointed Chan Yik Yan as his successor" but I'm sure alot of other lineages would have something to say about that.

drifting:

I didn't hear it anywhere. I copied the exact text that appeared above the photo at:
http://www.waterboxing.com/history1.html

According to this source, more than twenty-five students are said to have been certified as Masters from among the much larger overall number of students who received instruction from Master Wu.

These photos came from the same site:

[drifting]

Ah, I see. That site waterboxing.com is under revision and some of the old pages unfortunately still exist.
If you go to the main page and click on any of the links you will see what I'm talking about:
http://www.waterboxing.com

Alot of information about Liuhebafa is just regurgitated around the web. Its good that in recent years more sources are finally coming forward with more legitimate and accurately researched information.

[Brady]

Wow I just am browsing through threads and saw this one. I usually am bored by forms but I liked quite a few of the vids here. LHBF seems interesting.

[Wanderingdragon]

"Another important mistake practitioners can make , they said, is mindless repetition...just repeating the same thing...They don't continually search for more refined efficiency or power"... Taken from an article in Tai Chi magazine Vol.30 No.6. "The Internal Work Of LiuHe Bafa, Yun Yin Sen, with commentary from George Xu.
I have come to see the form of LHBF, as perfect as it's true founder created it to be,it is the shape and breath of the art , the structure has no strength if the breath does not support , as well the breath will be strained if the structure does not support it. The Earth, (your true foundation), offers great power, but you will never tap into it if you are not in harmony with it's gravity. I am sure this form was created with that comfort level in mind, why else would he also create sleeping Chi Gung ~haha~

[Wanderingdragon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulmKll3ZrDs
One of the first expressions of LHPF on youtube that I recognized , not by action of form so much as by breath.

[drifting]

Yun Yin Sen was a Taiji practitioner who learned Liuhebafa beginning in his late 40's from Zhang Chang Xin, Lu Gui Yao, and Liang Qi Zong. I too was impressed with him and his skill, but not in terms of Liuhebafa.

"Liuhebafa Standing Form" performed with no stepping... You cannot have the 6 Harmonies without the legs, you cannot begin the 9 Joints without the 6 Harmonies, you cannot have the develop the 8 Methods without the 9 Joints. Without the 6 Harmonies, 8 Methods, and 9 Joints the 5 Hearts cannot exist. Without the 5 Hearts and 9 Joints there is no Liuhebafa! Yes he is very skilled but it is in terms of Taiji... but again this is just my opinion.

Outer (physical) Six Harmonies: The outer harmonies are methods and clarifications of the application of Jiu Ji Li, or 9 Joint Power.

1. Body and Joints Combine
The three joints of the body (torso) are the cervical spine (neck), thoracic spine (upper back) and the lumbar spine (lower back). These 3 joints must move in harmony with each other.

2. Arm and Joints Combine
The three joints of the arm are the shoulder, elbow and wrist. These 3 joints must move in harmony with each other.

3. Leg and Joints Combine
The three leg joints are the hip, knee and ankle. These 3 joints must move in harmony with each other.

4. Hands and Feet Combine
The movement of the hands tracks the movement of the feet.

5. Elbows and Knees Combine
The movements of the elbows track the movements of the knees.

6. Shoulders and Hips Combine
The movement of the shoulders track the movement of the hips.

When one thing moves, all move; when one thing stops, all stop. All the main joints must start together and stop together in harmony.

[Wanderingdragon]

Here is where we differ in opinion, and thats okay. I believe that at the higher levels all of the virtues of LHPF can be demonstrated, even from standing posture, this is the subtlty of LHPF,the harmony if you will. At the most basic level this is the way, you learn this from the beginning, in the opening stroke. LHPF a far cry from Tai Chi, has in common with all internal arts, the Six Harmonies and the Five Hearts, it is the Eight Methods that are particular to LHPF, and these are strategic.

[Chowfarn]

I can see both points of view:
There is a certain amount of weigh transition between the feet.
But not moving the feet does not fully express the LHBF.

I saw this clip a few months back & though it was a great idea.
I have been doing the same thing when training space is very limited.
I found it greatly improves the sensation in the hands. A good stepping stone in body development.
But yes its not the true expression.

[Overlord]

Hi All,

FWIW, just out of curiosity, why is lhbf called called water boxing at the first place? Sorry to change topic, but there is a reason that i asked.

Strange, any token? Thanks! ( My thought is because it is wavy, one wave jin start, and another one follow, not sure if it is right.)

Over

[drifting]

I believe that at the higher levels all of the virtues of LHPF can be demonstrated, even from standing posture, this is the subtlty of LHPF,the harmony if you will.

LHPF a far cry from Tai Chi, has in common with all internal arts, the Six Harmonies and the Five Hearts, it is the Eight Methods that are particular to LHPF, and these are strategic.

How can the virtues of LHBF be demonstrated from a standing posture if there is no 6 Harmonies? I mean how do the wrists/elbows/shoulders track the ankles/knees/hips? It does just the opposite of the 9 Joints, it breaks them instead of linking them! I didn't say he wasn't showing skill, just that it isnt the skill of LHBF.

You say Taiji has the 5 Hearts? I would have to say no unless you have a source that says otherwise. Taiji does not have the 5 Hearts, it works on the 4 Ends, which is a different and non-complementary practice. That is in fact the very thing that makes LHBF and Taiji a different art!

To know what LHBF is you must understand what it is not.

why is lhbf called called water boxing at the first place?

The practical aspect of Liuhebafa as is related to combat has been called "Water Boxing". This name was adopted by early generations who discovered the greater depths of the art. The common perception of the name Water Boxing is that Liuhebafa moves smoothly as if one were floating in water. This is a misconception however and quite misleading from the true meaning. The actual concept of Water Boxing refers to the 3 States of Water; solid, liquid and gas. This can hold many meanings but essentially refers to not only ones level of progression and ability in the style but to their application of it as well. Moving against oncoming force and overpowering the opponent is an application of the solid state, moving with oncoming force (different from yielding) is an application of the liquid state, and avoiding the exchange of force all together is an application of the gas state. This water method is a very important practice of Liuhebafa and its knowledge and application show true depth in the internal arts. In short, Water Boxing is a stage or element of Liuhebafa, not an alternative name nor a separate art.

[drifting]

Some people say that Liuhebafa was originally called Water Boxing. That info is copied and pasted on many websites unfortunately, and seems to be only used for marketing of the style. That couldn't have been the original name, as according to Chen Yi Ren that name was from a later generation practitioner named Wang De Wei who changed the name of his own LHBF to Water Boxing.

[Wanderingdragon]

Maybe we are talking about the same thing here, as the six harmonies and nine joints do not only refer to motion but also the course of energy, as the foot supports the hand it is by the expression of these two principles, whether moving or standing. As I will admit, I am not clear on the five hearts so I very well could be wrong, I was going on the assumption that the five hearts referred to the souls of the feet , the palms, and the top of the head as they must all be connected in the issuance of power. I would greatly appreciate it if you would shed some light on this subject.

[Drake]

Just watched Mok Kar Fai's video, and have to say that there are both good points, and bad. As with everything. More positive, than negative. It's nice to see someone who's trained well, and is *still* searching for that elusive "perfection". Nice to see.

As an aside: Mok was Wai Lun Choi's Hsing-I student long before he became a student of Chan Yik Yan. It was Choi sifu who introduced Mok to Master Chan prior to Choi's immigration to the Untied States.

[Strange]

a very happy and prosperous chinese lunar new year to one and all!
well well i see all of you have been keeping busy with many interesting contributions ...

Gm Chen did feel that taiji is somehow not complimentary to the practice of lhbf, as to why exactly he did not say as much.
my teacher told me that he was learning taiji when he met GM Chen; he was basically told to stop taiji.
personally, i have dabbled in yang taiji and found that somehow it really does not sit well with my lhbf practice

Re: Helen Liang/Chan Su Sang
Chan Su Sang ( Chen Shu Sheng) was, for a time, appointed as the head coach in Singapore Guoshu Association, i do not know the specific date-time period.
i have seen him perform his lhbf many years ago in a Wushu Gala and saw that it was different from what i learned. i remember that his lhbf form had
a decidedly bagua-ish 'flavour', but i could be mistaken as i have not had the chance to speak with him in person. Recently, in singapore, there is a team of 2 men
who perform lhbf as a mirror pair; their form is also different from Chen Yiren's school. may be there are posts in youtube, but i have not checked.

Re: Name of Water Boxing/Fist
i have not taught that water fist means that the the art may be manifested in 3 different states like water; i also have no idea who said this first or based on
what experience/authority/teaching/theoretical basis, but if it aids understanding then i guess its ok.
In Chen YiRen's writing, he said that Wang DeWei (of XianYang) changed lhbf to water fist, later the art was passed to a daoist YuanRong, who practiced it as
Yuan Tong Ba Fa (元通八法). Then lhbf was disseminated to ppl staying between Sichuan and ShaanXi; especially among the ppl with surname Ye (叶) and
Li (李). Later Yang JingQun of FangShang (房山杨景群) used (this type of) Xin Yi Liu He, to treat the sick, and changed its name to 先天十二势.

so you see, actually lhbf have many names before; but Gm Chen's writing did stress that many passed lhbf master were 心意正宗 (authentic school of Xin Yi)

cheers
Strange