How you react

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Re: How you react

Postby windwalker on Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:47 pm

middleway wrote:

Use the strongest people, the people who react the least, it may not seem as flashy but its way more useful for those with the eyes to see.


Sounds kind of strange it ceases to become a demo.
The point of a demo is to demonstrate something that most should be able to see, followed by hands on so they can feel what they just saw.

Have met people who taught from this line of practice.

Didn't find what they did to be much different than what others do in push hand settings.
S-mantis has similar drills, teacher Sam's work tends to remind me very much of this.

Both teachers talked about the point of contact and the interaction with it. Without understanding this from their point of view or what they have said I don't see how one can speculate about what is happening or being shown in the clip.

Some will wonder if it's conditioning, oversensitivity or even faking.

All without understanding what is done how it's done why it's done according to the ones hosting the demo.

As Tom, mentioned it remains to be seen how its employed in actual usage by skilled practitioners of the art.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Subitai on Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:30 pm

Some really interesting comments defending it...

How would I react? Not like that student that's for sure. If someone (from a relaxed and sticky touch) can adhere to my center or affect my balance with such simple intent then i'd quit.

Quality of skill and basics is everything and even quality of certain kinds of students.. Last year I had a strange guy come visit to train at my class from another local school. He was so conditioned to allow his center to be taken and comply with it... that it was ridiculous.

Upon some simple push hands practice...upon the 1st touch, I didn't even have to try very hard to find his center and he was beginning to stomp and fall every easily. I told him, "i'm barely touching you...it's really not necessary. " = The look on his face was priceless...as If "I" was the clueless one!! ????

I began to explain how to receive properly and naturally... to not overreact and to make the other person EARN it if they are really going to move you. I could tell he was disappointed that it wasn't border line magical "Ancient Chinese Secret" (which I suspect his type is longing for) =========== > :) He never came again... Oh well, not fantasy enough for him!
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I have a question for you guys now?
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How would one of us (who don't agree or believe that the student in the OP was being real) approach Sensei Goldberg or Sifu Sam Chin and not completely offend them or come off looking like a d!ck to all their stooges? * I mean I've met Goldberg one time when I was Co teaching at Saratoga martial arts festival. He came up to me and said, " I saw what you've been teaching...you're one of the best ones here". I said "thanks". But I had never seen or met him before...so I had no idea who he was.

I've never met Sam, but If I did... I would want it to be of random chance or happen organically. I don't believe in disrespecting other teachers but if I got in front of him i'd be very tempted to test his skill. I mean, I wouldn't sucker punch or pull a dick move...but i'd love to see how he'd address me. Same thing with Mizner.

To counter my own question...I ask this sincerely because AGAIN = I also have respect for other teachers. I mean, I wouldn't want someone to come to my seminar and disrespect me either. I've had people say... can you show it live? or can you do it on me? I don't mind that...so long as the guy is not a dick about it. It's just that i've seen so many videos of these two teachers in demos but you never see anyone really testing them (I don't mean suckerpunch them ).

I just mean ... how would they take it If I paid to go to their seminar and made sure a neutral person was video recording it as I attempted to be non compliant ?

You know, some people only want their own cameras in place.

The only reason i'm even bringing this up mind you is because of how the students are always acting in the demos...i'm not trying to call the teacher on their skills so much. Lot's of people are pretty good actually, it's not that hard to have a few good tricks up your sleeve.
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Re: How you react

Postby middleway on Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:25 am

How would one of us (who don't agree or believe that the student in the OP was being real) approach Sensei Goldberg or Sifu Sam Chin and not completely offend them or come off looking like a d!ck to all their stooges?

I've never met Sam, but If I did... I would want it to be of random chance or happen organically. I don't believe in disrespecting other teachers but if I got in front of him i'd be very tempted to test his skill. I mean, I wouldn't sucker punch or pull a dick move...but i'd love to see how he'd address me. Same thing with Mizner.

To counter my own question...I ask this sincerely because AGAIN = I also have respect for other teachers......


Very good question and one which I personally had to answer in the last 10 or so years as i went to meet people like Sam. I think there are layers to the answer. I am also sure that when Roy and Sam met, they 'tested' each others work when they touched and this points to the way to approach testing someones skills.

I absolutely dont think the answer here it is to be a dick and throw unexpected punches, kicks of locks at someone. 1) i am not sure what that would prove, if you wandered up to Fedor at a seminar and threw a haymaker you would probably catch him so it proves nothing 2) I am not sure the question should even be "how good a fighter is this guy".


So first, i want to identify what the teacher is best known for. Sam is known for his ability to control his partners body through touch, Roy similarly. So that is how i would approach testing them, looking to see if their approach can produce that effect in me.

With that context then simply the work they always show would be enough. With Sam he walked around the seminar and showed his skill when he touched people while explaining his concepts. When he came to me i attempted to not allow myself to be affected by his method, in fact i tried to be tricky and use my own at the point of contact. I was still affected in a way i wouldnt usually expect. That was enough. It was actually an instrumental moment in me looking back at some other things i had felt from one of my other teachers and reverse engineering it.

Conversely when i Met Steve Morris, who is known for his power striking, i asked to feel his hit. Not in a dickish challange way, as a part of what he was teaching. He was showing hand controls and striking, so i said can "i feel the power from that distance" Again, that was enough to understand why he had the reputation he does.

Of course in some arts 'testing' can simply be to spar with the person. In BJJ you dont have to worry about identifying a specific skillset outside of 'grappling' you can just roll with the guy and their level is exposed immediately. With elite level guys you can go flat out and they hardly break a sweat.

I think 'testing' is probably the wrong word for that this whole subject though .. it sounds too confrontational. I prefer the idea that i am simple 'seeing what they have'.

Last year I had a strange guy come visit to train at my class from another local school. He was so conditioned to allow his center to be taken and comply with it... that it was ridiculous.

Upon some simple push hands practice...upon the 1st touch, I didn't even have to try very hard to find his center and he was beginning to stomp and fall every easily. I told him, "i'm barely touching you...it's really not necessary. " = The look on his face was priceless...as If "I" was the clueless one!! ????

I began to explain how to receive properly and naturally... to not overreact and to make the other person EARN it if they are really going to move you. I could tell he was disappointed that it wasn't border line magical "Ancient Chinese Secret" (which I suspect his type is longing for) =========== > :) He never came again... Oh well, not fantasy enough for him!


I have had several people the same as this haha. I have an almost identical responce to you ... and they have an almost identical responce too. Some people really do believe that something spooky is happening. I had a guy claim i was 'shooting electricity up his arms' ... i am pretty sure i wasnt. :-\

Sounds kind of strange it ceases to become a demo.
The point of a demo is to demonstrate something that most should be able to see, followed by hands on so they can feel what they just saw.


Windwalker, I dont think it ceases to become a demo at all, in fact i think it is a far superior demo. I am not saying use someone that will be opposing everything you do making it a fight. I mean use someone that is skilled themselves so that the methods you show have to be of a good level and the reactions of the partner be of a lower intensity. This will mean people dont call bullshit on legitimately useful stuff because some stooge partner is running 20 feet at the slightest touch.

Both teachers talked about the point of contact and the interaction with it. Without understanding this from their point of view or what they have said I don't see how one can speculate about what is happening or being shown in the clip.

Some will wonder if it's conditioning, oversensitivity or even faking.

All without understanding what is done how it's done why it's done according to the ones hosting the demo.


For context i have met and touched hands with Sam and have a background in Daito Ryu. So actually i have some understanding of their point of view and how they are doing what they are doing.

regards.
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Re: How you react

Postby Giles on Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:52 am

@ Subitai

(just saw Middleway's posting after completing mine - that's also pretty congruent with what I think. And yes, I had an Aikido guy as a student for a period and I spent some time persuading him not to go to the floor before I had actually done a meaningful/effective technique on him :P )

What I tend to do in situations:
A couple of times I present the teacher with some ‘dumb’ input to feel what he (or she) does with it. This does not mean I try and throw myself out of balance or jump around the room like crazy, but I will tense up, not worry about double-weighting or overcommitting myself, and seriously try to push (or pull) the other guy. Which should basically mean I’m still ‘handing myself on a plate’ to him if he’s good. I remember doing this with Mario Napoli years ago, and 1 or 2 seconds later, without feeling any significant 'force' from him, I was flying past him, turned over in the air once, and rolled a couple of times before getting back to my feet. Lovely. :D

Then I say, “OK, now I’ll try to centre myself better.” I’ll still try and find his centre, get him if I can, (i.e. not just avoid being pushed by doing nothing myself). But simultaneously I’ll be as technically good as I can, as soft and centred as I can, and try and get the other guy. In a playful kind of way. People can tell whether you’re doing this in a good spirit or not. And then I can tell a lot more about him, whether he still gets me sometimes, or almost always, or not any more. And in what way, with what kind of quality and how extreme. Should it be the case that I get him (i.e. his centre of balance, where I can uproot him), then if it’s in a seminar situation I’ll stay respectful and move him just a fraction. Which if it’s someone who’s good, will usually be the maximum anyway. With some well-known names I’ve been able to do this to some extent, with others definitely not.
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Re: How you react

Postby GrahamB on Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:15 am

Tom - Ah, I see. I obviously need to adjust my sarcasm filter, since that one flew right over my head ;D
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Re: How you react

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:54 am

middleway wrote:
windwalker : Both teachers talked about the point of contact and the interaction with it. Without understanding this from their point of view or what they have said I don't see how one can speculate about what is happening or being shown in the clip.

Some will wonder if it's conditioning, oversensitivity or even faking.

All without understanding what is done how it's done why it's done according to the ones hosting the demo.


For context i have met and touched hands with Sam and have a background in Daito Ryu. So actually i have some understanding of their point of view and how they are doing what they are doing.

regards.


There are clips of Sam, with some of his students reacting in much the same way for the same reasons.
With out understanding or a background that allows one to, just watching as many do they may question what is going on and why the people react as they do.

The responses on this are quite interesting mostly given from a push hands point of view....

Imagine if this was filmed

I remember doing this with Mario Napoli years ago, and 1 or 2 seconds later, without feeling any significant 'force' from him, I was flying past him, turned over in the air once, and rolled a couple of times before getting back to my feet. Lovely. :D


In writing no one questions it, once filmed its up for grabs.

For the record I really dont care much for push hands although i've had people in the area SF, approach me wanting to gain some skill in it. Many of them teach groups themselves. Its a training tool, not much interest to me IMO many bad habits can be developed if one does not
understand what is being trained.

If one really wants to get tested its over at first touch...something that many seem not to get....Its pointless to go much beyond this. This is partially why as in the demo the "connection" is stressed. What happens, what is being connected with, ect. If one really wants to test it, they should just go and spar or fight using it.

This is the test..

With striking arts, in demo mode if some did as some have mentioned here trying to test the teacher ect.
They might get hurt or knocked out depending on level of the teacher.


Upon some simple push hands practice...upon the 1st touch, I didn't even have to try very hard to find his center and he was beginning to stomp and fall every easily. I told him, "i'm barely touching you...it's really not necessary. " = The look on his face was priceless...as If "I" was the clueless one!! ????


Always find this out look interesting. Again "push hands"

Used to train with teacher Breden Lai, 7* mantis, and his group a long time ago...My background included taiji at the time, just getting into some of the work I would later complete in Beijing "taiji work"

We practiced a combo series typical to mantis. In working with some of the students there feeling the direction of their force I would apply taiji principle they would end up tripping themselves off line. Teacher Lai, seeing this came over and corrected me, demoing on me.

His touch was very light and did not have the same feel to it as the students....although I could feel its direction I didn't follow up, I did as was instructed dispite feeling something the others could not,,,they not being sensitive enough or trained to feel it.. It was not what I was there for at the time, nor something they where training for being mantis. Different theory.

The whole point from my POV is everything is done with a progressively lighter and lighter touch as the understanding of what is being connected with grows.

The OP opening statement.

"How you react"

It depends...

In beijing I was presented with something I had never felt before and did not understand why I reacted to it as I did.
I would spend the next 10yrs investigating this working the group and the teacher there who would become my next, last and final
taiji teacher.

CJW, brought up the point of "feeding jin" to the teacher so that the teacher as something work with....using this to show others
First one has to understand what is meant by "jin" and have developed it enough to understand how to do or what is meant by this.

Although some say they've trained with either one or both of the instructors
they don't really say what their level of understanding is,
nor explain enough of what is going that might help to explain the reaction noted.

Instead, oddly enough they seem to discount it.... :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:15 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Dmitri on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:08 am

GrahamB wrote:Now answer this honestly - if you were that student, would you react in this way?

If I were "that student" it would make me an aikido student of a famous master... Of course I would react that way, in that scenario. Comes on man. Have you never seen an uke during a demonstration? This is normal behavior, to amplify things with exaggerated movement. There are pluses and minuses to it, not my cup of tea generally, but this is certainly nothing new.
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Re: How you react

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:37 am

CJW's post is pretty bang on.

However there are levels of reaction and what extends into 'over reaction' - clearly there are different ideas of what that would be. I have had a few interesting experiences with Sam Chin which tie in to some of this discussion, seeing as he's become part of it. I have also gone up against a bigger Russian ILC dude at the European push hands tournament moving step years back now. Dude had good skills at the time. The system isn't really geared for "push hands" per se, but practitioners can take it that way of course - and they do - particularly the Russian crowd.

Anyway I had crossed hands with Sam before (and been handled easily - I recall Chris/Middleway was in the Seminar room actually) though this second time he was in London at my Local group class much more recently, taking the session. It attracted extra people of course not normally training in that group. Amongst them a couple of notable Gents (known teachers). So at some point in the evening they wanted to feel Sam and his power, and I sort of keenly observed the interaction.. As you do.

So they did the pretty classic thing of being quite 'framed up' when he countered them. At the time I was a bit hmmm about it. After a bit I took a go as well as it had been ages since I last met Sam. I took it easy, softly and probed, and when Sam came back I softened myself, so also neutralizing. Clearly I was doing something different than those other guys and the difference in how I was effected was obvious and fairly big. Sam was going easy with me, it should be noted probably following my lead on level of softness and interaction. I know through the grapevine that some folks have just tried to go for it with Sam and he just turns it up and does what he does..

Not very long after I had another interaction with him at a seminar. This time I approached it a little differently. I had thought about what happened before and what I had gotten from it and what it all meant etc.. I pretty much came to the conclusion I was better off being more like those guys I mentioned - not worrying about the effect on me and minimizing it - but rather get the most feedback and effect or feeling directly from Sam.

In comparison I got much more from this second interaction. End of the day you're there to learn from the teacher, not boost your own ego lol. I should mention contextually the interaction wasn't exactly the same, but I approached it with a different mindset this time; firmer and less cautious and careful, Sam wanted to demo something in regards pushing and pulling and basically whatever I did or tried Sam toyed with me easily. The effect on me was likewise bigger and more obvious than the previous occasion.

Anyway coming back to some of these interactions we see on the webs there are just some that wind me up no end. That guy with Goldberg is a fairly good example. I hear people grunting and moaning, please come on. Goldbergs guys and some of the guys connected to Yang family in Boston for me are just a bit of a wind up and OTT. Compliance can easily cross into over compliance and downright wierdness. That shit needs balancing and that's really the bottom line of it that I can tell. You need both compliant and non compliant work to varying degrees.

When you cross 'true belief' with ever more compliant work - it pretty much guarentees a walk into wierdness. That could be good or bad, but just don't sell it as "the truth", it's totally conditional (still truth but far more conditional, on a bunch of stuff), not least of all the subjective expriences and framework of the receiver.

Here's one for example. There are several of these two gentlemen up on youtube. Keith Cini posts on some of the facebook groups I'm on, seems like a decent enough bloke and all the rest, but I can't reconcile with his experience - particularly the sounds he makes, for example .. . Some of it I can get why, given the framework. Does it have to be so, probably not. Is there extra benefit to be 'stricter', arguable perhaps.



Having said that; my understanding - what little I do understand of this - is that there are 'strict' ways in this line to receive force. These are based on what is deemed overall to be beneficial. Part of that for example is to build / strengthen the frame, connection and power of the receiver rather than the issuer. So the brief of the receiver is to be as connected and strong as possible and do the utmost to 'stand firm' so to speak. To keep the frame and connection intact - this can explain the jumping with both feet in unison for example.

In the end these things come down to how well a person receives force, the given way, plus the skill and power of the issuer - but in terms of reaction I think the former is the greater factor most of the time in these kind of demos.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How you react

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:46 am

Good post Cloudz. Yeah, you felt it yourself what happened when you relaxed and didn’t offer any resistance. I’ve always thought that the Iliquan people are too tense, too hard when they practice, you see the same kind of spinning hands in some Bagua schools as well. But if you look at it as a way to practice principles and a special set of methods it’s ok. Most “real” opponents will offer a hard or obvious frame to work with. But you don't want to get stuck in a certain "mode". The problem is that many schools only practice in an ideal format, practicing defense from isolated ideal attacks from ideal distances with ideal angles. It’s ok to practice from the ideal setting, but you shouldn't expect to be offered any of those isolated ideal attacks anywhere else than in the school environment. But IMO it's also a mistake to dismiss everything you see in demos. Much of what you see in demos is still practical doable even if the context will be different. The context is something different from the principles, mechanics and methods. But this difference I guess is what the naysayers refuse to see. :/
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Re: How you react

Postby Trick on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:40 am

The videos i can see(Chinese tubes) of Shioda demonstrating his Aikido, I can see what’s going on and they are quite interesting demos......From what I understand the training at the Yoshinkan Honbu Dojo with its Senshusei course it is quite rigorous and not for the faint hearted, they’re not practicing for “magic” demonstration shows......For those who are interested, a good fun read is ‘Angry White Pyjamas’ by Robert Twigger who participated in above mentioned training course.
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Re: How you react

Postby Gringorn on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:41 am

Marvin8, you wrote:
"Does anyone have a video of any of Sam's instructors/students perform his method against a moving, resistant opponent?

I do not see these instructors/students performing ILC's control at point of contact, unbalancing, etc:"

Kickboxing with gloves and rules looks like kickboxing with gloves and rules.
As to the videos you posted,Sanda Volgoda is poster who has it in for ILC Russia for some reason and only posts videos, often edited, of ILC people, one person in particular, loosing fights. No video of fights where they/he wins, only losses. It is an attempt to defame ILC.

As to the original post - none of Sam Chin's students (re)act this way. Uke sickness.
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Re: How you react

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:16 pm

Think of energy training as push-ups -- conditioning exercises designed to train and build the body in certain ways to develop physical attributes that are useful and applicable in fighting.

To say this type of energy training is laughable because they would never work on a resisting opponent is like arguing that doing push-ups are useless for fighting since you can't hurt someone by doing push-ups on them as they are down on the ground. ;)
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Re: How you react

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:20 pm

GrahamB wrote:Now answer this honestly - if you were that student, would you react in this way?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq008eK ... e=youtu.be



What they both are doing controls the partner's center of mass and also manipulates him through his alignment. Almost anyone with conventional body structure and carriage can be affected that way. However, if applied on another individual who has good internal skills, they will be able to neutralize and even counter it. Then it becomes a chess game rather than a blitz. For these two master-level teachers to work their skills on each other, they each had to cooperate in turn by releasing their highly trained internal structures and stand like "the average Joe" so the other master could apply his internal method. The student who was volunteering himself to take the technique does not have that level of skill, and so his body could be affected and moved easily against his will.
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Re: How you react

Postby GrahamB on Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:53 am

Interesting that everybody wants to share their deep knowledge....but nobody wants to answer the question I asked. :D
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Re: How you react

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:21 am

GrahamB wrote:..but nobody wants to answer the question I asked. :D


I did. I said that I would not and that if I was going to react that way I would probably need to study Aikido at least 10, 15 years.
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