Jkd vs wing chun

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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby Giles on Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:03 am

GrahamB wrote:it ends up on the ground in seconds.
Would ground skills have made a difference? (JKD guy appears to go for some wrestling/BJJ positions - did he have rudamentary skills?)
Is that still Wing Chun?


You could put it that way, but it didn't "go to the ground" in the sense that the combatants ended up grappling, rolling around on the ground etc. The wing chun guy threw stripey tiger in a pretty clean way and basically stayed on his feet after that point, while dominating him. Which is about the best place to be in a real fight, so well done!
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:31 am

haha.

You're just splitting hairs Giles. You don't both have to be rolling around in the mud for it to have "gone to the ground". That fight is what "gone to the ground" looks like. In a lot of fights the initial throw to the ground ends it by knocking somebody unconcious. That didn't happen here.

In this one Rashad used a knee on belly to control Where's Waldo from the top position quite well, then backed off, which enabled Waldo (that's his official name now) to wrestle up to a single leg, which he did really badly and ended up being thrown into more furniture. More familiarity with grappling in that situation could have enabled Rashad to advance his position, control his opponent more and maybe ended that with a choke and less damage all round. Or Waldo could have applied a footlock from the bottom position (it was there) or wrestled up succesfully to standing. But I don't think Rashad was interested in ending it with less damage - he was in "I'm going to teach you a lesson" mode.

That fight was 70% grappling.

Nice to see RSF's own Master Kelley Graham getting a shout out for his skills in that Golden Bell Training video earlier in the thread! He's at about 10.40-ish.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ-Y7DPzPvk

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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:40 am

This makes me think of the difference watching a Donnie Yen ("Ip Man") flick and watching Bruce Lee in "Enter the Dragon." In Lee's case, I never questioned which "style" he was using --or whether he could actually use it. That coincides with Lee's theory about the need to personalize one's martial art. (I.e., take what is useful, etc). It's theatrical, of course. When he's surrounded by a bunch of opponents, it's necessary to suspend belief when he wins. But, there's not really an identifiable "style." Otoh, when "Ip Man" fights a gang, he's strictly doing wing chun. The latter is even less believable.

In the vid, it didn't really matter that the jkd guy was doing jkd or the wc guy wasn't doing wc. It was not a style competition because that was unnecessary. I agree that what one has (or hasn't) trained will emerge when one is under pressure. Responses need to become second nature, without being thoughtless, and still work. And, for most people, the chances of needing those responses to be used or work outside of practice will be very rare.

I also think plans for using a martial art often change when the artist gets pissed off. He might even pick up a chair or a shovel.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby windwalker on Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:30 am

Seems quite simple


Had the young man did the same thing in a Thai boxing gym,
would the conversation be about what the instructor used or not
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:08 am

AJG wrote:Now don't get me wrong I've nothing against rudimentary techniques that work but I do question practicing technique that the subconscious mind doesn't necessarily want to accept for one reason or another. To be honest the movement by wing chun was probably smoother and more dynamic that had he done wing chun. And we all fall over Marvin, its probably because we have two legs and not four.

I do recall a post long ago by Chris McKinley on this. I think he called it contextualisation or something like that and he proposed an approach to helping ingrain the movements one wanted which i vaguely remember being interesting.

I described what Rahsun did. I did not criticize how he handled the situation nor say anything about "fall over."

As far as Wing Chun, Rahsun did what Qi La La (an experienced Wing Chun fighter) did in his fight: missed with his trapping, punched, got head control (or underhook) and threw his opponent to the ground.

In Wing Chun's sweet spot (range), Waldo (JKD) could have extended his left arm (long guard) and followed Rahsun's missed left downward grab with a right hand punch:

Image

As to why compound trapping may not work, in his video, Wang Guan Nan says modern strikers (e.g., boxing, MMA) retract their punches and move, older MA styles may not have. Even if one makes contact, it doesn't mean one has control.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby dspyrido on Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:44 pm

Here we go again about trapping & controls. If you don't know how to use it then it won't work. The problem is range. Good trapping is about being in elbow range (not punching or kicking range) & many of the time "modern" (whatever that means) artists will automatically turn to their judo/wrestling.

Anyway that escalated fast. Sure waldo was a muppet & came too close to his personal space but there were a bunch of other guys around who could easily deescalated it. Wally didn't really want to fight. He just wanted to posture up. Perhaps he learnt his lesson.

Deep down thoughtI didn't feel Rahsun wanted to kill him. I've used the bitch slap in security to disorient. Works a treat & is kinder than headbutting someone.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby marvin8 on Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:20 pm

dspyrido wrote:Here we go again about trapping & controls. If you don't know how to use it then it won't work. The problem is range. Good trapping is about being in elbow range (not punching or kicking range) & many of the time "modern" (whatever that means) artists will automatically turn to their judo/wrestling.

... which is kind of my point, a standard argument. Qi La La and Rahsun missed their trapping, abandoned it and just turned to head control/throwing like any modern grappler.

dspyrido wrote:Anyway that escalated fast. Sure waldo was a muppet & came too close to his personal space but there were a bunch of other guys around who could easily deescalated it. Wally didn't really want to fight. He just wanted to posture up. Perhaps he learnt his lesson.

Yes, Waldo didn't throw a punch. A more appropriate counter to Rahsun's missed trapping and forward momentum may have been harai-goshi.

dspyrido wrote:Deep down thoughtI didn't feel Rahsun wanted to kill him. I've used the bitch slap in security to disorient. Works a treat & is kinder than headbutting someone.

Right. If you are at a higher level, you just play with them—like in the Kelley Graham account.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:51 pm

"... which is kind of my point, a standard argument. Qi La La and Rahsun missed their trapping, abandoned it and just turned to head control/throwing like any modern grappler."

There's something curious about it that's interesting though - throwing with the head and arm thow: It's really rare to see that in mens MMA, but it happens all the time in women's MMA. I mean, of course it's happened in men's MMA, but it's very rare - and it's really common in women's MMA - it was Ronda Rousey's bread and butter throw.

Nobody seems to know why it separates over sex like that.

Or why, you see it more in real world fights and less in men's MMA.

The mystery deepens.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:27 am

GrahamB wrote:There's something curious about it that's interesting though - throwing with the head and arm thow: It's really rare to see that in mens MMA, but it happens all the time in women's MMA. I mean, of course it's happened in men's MMA, but it's very rare - and it's really common in women's MMA - it was Ronda Rousey's bread and butter throw.

Nobody seems to know why it separates over sex like that.

Women are not as strong as men in their striking. So, women can walk through punches to get to head and arm position with less chance of getting KO. Also, women's MMA is less talented and evolved than men's MMA.

Here is a reddit discussion, "How do women fight differently?"

GrahamB wrote:Or why, you see it more in real world fights and less in men's MMA.

The mystery deepens.

The street has less skilled fighters that can control the distance, pivot out, kick, strike, knee, etc. So in the street, it's easier to rush someone, clinch, get head/arm control and throw them.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby dspyrido on Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:09 pm

marvin8 wrote:... which is kind of my point, a standard argument. Qi La La and Rahsun missed their trapping, abandoned it and just turned to head control/throwing like any modern grappler.


You know that trapping in WC includes head control?

That trapping is only a bridging method to setup strikes, locks, sweeps and throws?

That in WC there are a bunch of foot sweeps, head & arm throws? Moves that look like headlock, shoulder and elbow throws. Also a bunch of sweeps that have judo equivalents just without a gi.

That even before UFC 1 happened WC schools used to teach a form of ground and pound much like was done in the video?
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:19 pm

marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Here we go again about trapping & controls. If you don't know how to use it then it won't work. The problem is range. Good trapping is about being in elbow range (not punching or kicking range) & many of the time "modern" (whatever that means) artists will automatically turn to their judo/wrestling.

... which is kind of my point, a standard argument. Qi La La and Rahsun missed their trapping, abandoned it and just turned to head control/throwing like any modern grappler.
dspyrido wrote:That trapping is only a bridging method to setup strikes, locks, sweeps and throws

Right. Again, Rahsun and Qi La La failed to "bridge to their throws" by trapping in "elbow range." Rather, Rahsun left himself open to counters by chasing hands. What part of that do you disagree with or isn't clear?
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:09 pm

marvin8 wrote:What part of that do you disagree with or isn't clear?


The part were you're armchair warrioring some bitch slapping moves that ultimately worked from a scuffle perspective but I am not so sure was a good idea to send around the world as a viral video.

I'm sure there's 10,000 other things he could have done but didn't. Does it really matter?
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:20 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:What part of that do you disagree with or isn't clear?


The part were you're armchair warrioring some bitch slapping moves that ultimately worked from a scuffle perspective but I am not so sure was a good idea to send around the world as a viral video.

My description was "Stockton Slap," while providing videos and gifs. Stockton Slap can be an effective "move," which was used by Nate Diaz in his fight against Conor McGregor—combining curved and straight strikes. Your description (?) was "bitch slap." Where is the disagreement between our descriptions ("armchair warrioring")?

marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:Deep down thoughtI didn't feel Rahsun wanted to kill him. I've used the bitch slap in security to disorient. Works a treat & is kinder than headbutting someone.

Right. If you are at a higher level, you just play with them—like in the Kelley Graham account.


IMO, most of your arguments are ad hominem or straw person, not worth the time to respond.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby dspyrido on Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:35 pm

marvin8 wrote:IMO, most of your arguments are ad hominem or straw person, not worth the time to respond.


marvin8 wrote:... which is kind of my point, a standard argument. Qi La La and Rahsun missed their trapping, abandoned it and just turned to head control/throwing like any modern grappler.


What is this modern grappler you are referring to when it comes to a move that has evidence of existence that's 1000s of years of old? What part of trapping turning into a head throw being a part of WC do you not get to claim abandonment for a move that is taught as part of the system? Have you trained in WC for an extended period of time under several known fight oriented instructors to be able to judge or are you referencing to what others say in a hope of legitimising a view point?

Do you have the right background? If not then IMO you are operating under selective thinking. Try some experiential learning.
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Re: Jkd vs wing chun

Postby vadaga on Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:18 am

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