Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

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Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby yeniseri on Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:15 pm

I like Jesse Enkamp and his thorough research of the true bunkai of karate and its lost Okinawan origins. Much of the original work was shown by Patrick McCarthy and his Bubishi. Jessee Enkamp does hthe actual portrayals and one sees
the true origins of what karate was supposed to be but somehow missed the boat based on that content. Check it out
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:35 pm

What makes people think these applications are any better than the old block strike applications
The Patrick mc one of there are no strikes in Karate makes little sense
There are blocks in tai chi when needed
If you don't see the depth of karate you are just not looking hard enough
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:49 am

I must say I have my doubts as to whether these heavily grappling-based Karate applications can be labeled as "true Okinawan."

Just checked out some of Pat McCarthy's materials online, and it seems he also has a background in Japanese Koryu arts, which I tend to think are more likely to be the source and inspiration of his grappling-based interpretation of Okinawan Karate katas.
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby yeniseri on Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:22 pm

wayne hansen wrote:What makes people think these applications are any better than the old block strike applications
The Patrick mc one of there are no strikes in Karate makes little sense
There are blocks in tai chi when needed
If you don't see the depth of karate you are just not looking hard enough


It is not a function of better but of utility! I realize that the 90% of those who have been practitioners of karate were taught as they were and this is just an insight from Mr Enkamp on a different perspective that never left Okinawa
and it makes sense that because of that the "block/punch" scenario was taught as we see today. I can see how the many will look askance of the above prespective but the mind has to be opened, like a parachute (i borrowed that from somewhere ;D for it to work as it should.

It is just a different perspective that may be disastrous to many, whatever their belief because the illusion was shattered and brought to light.
Some people addicted to the internal will not want to "tussle" but that is OK. They can always block and punch. Absorb what is useful and discard the BS (I love Bruce Lee's concept on CMA
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:44 pm

As a former practitioner of Okinawan Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu, I can say from personal experience that the Okinawan karate styles all include numerous takedown techniques for tripping, sweeping, and throwing opponents. Generally speaking, however, these techniques are usually employed as finishing movements following defensive blocks or deflections, and subsequent counterstrikes by the hands and feet, rather than as an initial response to incoming attacks.

The reason for that order of engagement is simple. Throwing techniques most often require a larger range of motion, with both hands gripping the opponent's body, making them slower to execute and, thus, less efficient in dispatching any lone attacker, while even more inefficient as initial defense methods, for the same reasons, when defending against multiple attackers. ::)
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby Bhassler on Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:18 pm

Jesse Enkamp's videos seem to present things that he just learned about as if they are both a) new information and b) verifiably factual. Just because something is new to him does not mean it is new to anyone else, and for the most part it takes time and experience to vet things in a practical way.

By contrast, I would recommend comparing to the videos of Iain Abernethy, who has been very seriously researching and applying karate for decades.
https://www.youtube.com/c/practicalkatabunkai/videos

He has a number of videos about karate throws, and he often cites classical texts from old Japanese guys-- so saying they never made it over from Okinawa is a documented falsehood.
Here are a couple of videos talking about how he interprets kata. Again, folks can compare to Mr. Enkamp's compilation of techniques and decide for themselves which approach seems more satisfying.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dDIJN7647s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71x83iZKB2g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmjKWsZ99yk
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:59 pm

He might be able to fight but dosent impress me
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby GrahamB on Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:08 am

My guess would be that there are no "real" applications. They're all as valid as each other.

I think it's pretty universally agreed upon that "China Hand" came to Okinawa from trade with China. It's a version of white crane, with possible input from regional southern styles.

If you look at what we have today of these white crane styles you can see the original forms of Karate. When you see these sorts of forms from Southern China done it seems pretty clear to me that they are not about one for one obvious match of application and form - they're more like conditioning forms. Conditioning the body for combat. Stretching the tendons.

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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby Bhassler on Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:15 am

wayne hansen wrote:He might be able to fight but dosent impress me


That's not really the point. The point is that his commentary is clearly more deeply and broadly researched than the vast majority of what's being presented as "the hidden truth" on the internet these days, much of it is over 10 years old, and it's actually tied to a useable practice (or at least useable for something other than youtube views).
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:21 am

One of Patrick Macarthy,s senior students would come to Lismore from Coffs Harbour a couple of hundred miles away to train with me each week when I taught down there
He had some great two man drills which he said were original karate but I had learned a couple of them in Kali
The reason I bring this up is I never understood why if they were so interested in tracing Karate back to white crane why they didn't just learn White Crane
I always thought it was like trying to unscramble the eggs
Another old friend of mine who I just found had passed on was Peter Yates
Pete lived in New York
He came from Darwen a coal mining town in the UK and you could tell he was brought up in that environment
When I met pete he was a senior student of Higoana from Okinawa
I was very impressed by him and his art
He had a karate school in Tokyo for a number of years
He got in touch with me to tell me I was the reason he left karate and pursued the internal arts
He saw something and went deeper not trying to unscramble the eggs
His son contacted me recently to tell me he is putting together a book about his fathers life and wanted to know what I could contribute
I am waiting for him to call back
Bit of a rave but this subject bought pete to mind
He was one of the best Karate people I have met but when he moved on he never looked back
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:21 am

wayne hansen wrote:The reason I bring this up is I never understood why if they were so interested in tracing Karate back to white crane why they didn't just learn White Crane
I always thought it was like trying to unscramble the eggs


I remember reading the book version of BBC's martial arts documentary "The Way of The Warrior" years ago in which Morio Higaonna, a high-ranking Okinawan Goju teacher, talks about how he once crossed hands with a Taiwanese CMAist and lost. However, he still refused to study Chinese arts due to his pride as a Okinawan.
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:38 am

Gee I don’t remember that part
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby Michael Babin on Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:04 am

C.J.W.

I just re-read the chapter on karate in the book you mentioned The Way of the Warrior as I have a copy beside my desk. No mention of the comment you remembered in any of the quotes attributed to Higanno in that chapter. Perhaps you were thinking of another book?

Both men in the links listed in this thread have impressive karate skills. Karate is much like modern taiji in that it is rare to find teachers who are really impressive as both practitioners and instructors.
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Re: Karate Bunkai and its true Okinawan usage

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:21 am

Michael Babin wrote:C.J.W.

I just re-read the chapter on karate in the book you mentioned The Way of the Warrior as I have a copy beside my desk. No mention of the comment you remembered in any of the quotes attributed to Higanno in that chapter. Perhaps you were thinking of another book?

Both men in the links listed in this thread have impressive karate skills. Karate is much like modern taiji in that it is rare to find teachers who are really impressive as both practitioners and instructors.

Exactly so. Sad, but true. :-\
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