Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby Doc Stier on Tue May 17, 2022 8:21 am

To be fair, CMA practitioners certainly aren't the only martial arts people who teach, train and compete in an insulated bubble which is greatly in need of a reality check. Many karate and taekwondo organizations also only train and compete against others who practice the same or similar styles.

As a result, they often don't ever realize that what works well in their own schools and tournaments may not work nearly as well against others with significantly different movement styles, different techniques, different body methods, and different realtime combat strategies.

Sadly, many martial arts of every variety nowadays seem to be focused primarily on forms performance for tournament competitions or for public demonstration to attract new students, not for practical, effective fighting skills outside of their insulated bubble. :-\
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue May 17, 2022 8:25 am

Doc Stier wrote:To be fair, CMA practitioners certainly aren't the only martial arts people who teach, train and compete in an insulated bubble which is greatly in need of a reality check. Many karate and taekwondo organizations also only train and compete against others who practice the same or similar styles.

As a result, they often don't ever realize that what works well in their own schools and tournaments may not work nearly as well against others with significantly different movement styles, different techniques, different body methods, and different realtime combat strategies.

Sadly, many martial arts of every variety nowadays seem to be focused primarily on forms performance for tournament competitions or for public demonstration to attract new students, not for practical, effective fighting skills outside of their insulated bubble. :-\


A guoshu leitai face mask and a pair of MMA gloves worn on a Saturday afternoon with like-minded individuals can fix a lot of problems. I had the honor and pleasure of doing that with and without gear for years with a wide variety of martial artists and kungfu people. It serves to remind that all this theory needs to be put into fighting practice instead of fixating on minutia in forms. But I've found that only a few people are willing to mix it up and get that benefit.
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby windwalker on Tue May 17, 2022 8:45 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:To be fair, CMA practitioners certainly aren't the only martial arts people who teach, train and compete in an insulated bubble which is greatly in need of a reality check. Many karate and taekwondo organizations also only train and compete against others who practice the same or similar styles.

As a result, they often don't ever realize that what works well in their own schools and tournaments may not work nearly as well against others with significantly different movement styles, different techniques, different body methods, and different realtime combat strategies.

Sadly, many martial arts of every variety nowadays seem to be focused primarily on forms performance for tournament competitions or for public demonstration to attract new students, not for practical, effective fighting skills outside of their insulated bubble. :-\


A guoshu leitai face mask and a pair of MMA gloves worn on a Saturday afternoon with like-minded individuals can fix a lot of problems.
I had the honor and pleasure of doing that with and without gear for years with a wide variety of martial artists and kungfu people.
It serves to remind that all this theory needs to be put into fighting practice instead of fixating on minutia in forms. But I've found that only a few people are willing to mix it up and get that benefit.



Problems, mmmm :P

seems like people vs methods.

Is it the method , or the people do not have the skill to use them

or for those who do use them, understand the methods "they" use,,,and only proof them to "their" needs...
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby Bao on Tue May 17, 2022 8:56 am

I don't always agree with this fellow, he has made several similar videos. But right here, I thought he made an excellent point about strategy - We try to not pull a fist back to "try again" or chasing points. We use an attack or defense to set up an attack or a sceond attack. The important thing is to get contact as soon as possible and then stick to the opponent.

But you need to train these methods and this mind-set. You need to apply it in combat practice as in sparring, otherwise you will fall back to the jump-araound-chasing-points and strike individual strikes. When "neijia" guys go sparring, I almost always see them do common boxing or kick-boxing type of sparring. The basic neijia strategies and fighting methods are seldom taught.
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby Doc Stier on Tue May 17, 2022 9:25 am

Bao wrote:I thought he made an excellent point about strategy - We try to not pull a fist back to "try again" or chasing points. We use an attack or defense to set up an attack or a sceond attack. The important thing is to get contact as soon as possible and then stick to the opponent.

But you need to train these methods and this mind-set. You need to apply it in combat practice as in sparring, otherwise you will fall back to the jump-araound-chasing-points and strike individual strikes. When "neijia" guys go sparring, I almost always see them do common boxing or kick-boxing type of sparring. The basic neijia strategies and fighting methods are seldom taught.

Agreed. They enter form competitions for specific styles, with distinctive stylistic expressions and signature techniques, but in the 'fighting' competitions, they generally look like they all train the same things at kick boxing gyms.

This tells me that they obviously don't know how to effectively apply their individual styles in actual fighting scenarios, either competitively or on the street.
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby windwalker on Tue May 17, 2022 10:18 am

Doc Stier wrote:
Bao wrote:I thought he made an excellent point about strategy - We try to not pull a fist back to "try again" or chasing points. We use an attack or defense to set up an attack or a sceond attack. The important thing is to get contact as soon as possible and then stick to the opponent.

But you need to train these methods and this mind-set. You need to apply it in combat practice as in sparring, otherwise you will fall back to the jump-araound-chasing-points and strike individual strikes. When "neijia" guys go sparring, I almost always see them do common boxing or kick-boxing type of sparring. The basic neijia strategies and fighting methods are seldom taught.

Agreed. They enter form competitions for specific styles, with distinctive stylistic expressions and signature techniques, but in the 'fighting' competitions, they generally look like they all train the same things at kick boxing gyms.

This tells me that they obviously don't know how to effectively apply their individual styles in actual fighting scenarios, either competitively or on the street.


How do you know ? Do they win ?

Isn't winning, the only measure that counts
Is it the person or method ?

If they lose, no matter what it's a loss...was it the person or the method...

Are those doing this claiming to represent the styles they practice


On da street, better not to have to engage at all, if possible...there is no wining...
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 17, 2022 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby windwalker on Tue May 17, 2022 10:30 am

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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby Bao on Tue May 17, 2022 12:48 pm

windwalker wrote:On da street, better not to have to engage at all, if possible...there is no wining...


Fair comment. Agreed.

...

On the two clips I can only say that I don't like gloves, they should at least be open with the fingers free so you can grab. And I don't like point chasing matches.

Personally I believe that those kind of rules teach wrong habits. And bad habits. But I guess it's good to have some confidence with thick gloves and full contact sparring as well. :P
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue May 17, 2022 5:51 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
Bao wrote:I thought he made an excellent point about strategy - We try to not pull a fist back to "try again" or chasing points. We use an attack or defense to set up an attack or a sceond attack. The important thing is to get contact as soon as possible and then stick to the opponent.

But you need to train these methods and this mind-set. You need to apply it in combat practice as in sparring, otherwise you will fall back to the jump-araound-chasing-points and strike individual strikes. When "neijia" guys go sparring, I almost always see them do common boxing or kick-boxing type of sparring. The basic neijia strategies and fighting methods are seldom taught.

Agreed. They enter form competitions for specific styles, with distinctive stylistic expressions and signature techniques, but in the 'fighting' competitions, they generally look like they all train the same things at kick boxing gyms. This tells me that they obviously don't know how to effectively apply their individual styles in actual fighting scenarios, either competitively or on the street.


Well neijia people treat kicking and punching range like it's the plague. Too busy turning around in circles and doing forms to do basic techniques like punching and kicking. But as soon as they spar, they have to get past punches and kicks to make all that lovely sticking and "fajin" work and they get mauled -- because when you don't train something yourself, you don't know how to defend against it.

Second, neijia people do almost everything in slow motion. Even XYQ is infected with that now. In order to be fast, you have to train FAST but again, they treat fast training as "external" so in sparring their training goes out the window because it didn't prepare them for reality.

Third, fighting looks nothing like forms. Forms are an exercise system, not fighting techniques. There is very little to no crossover from forms to fighting.
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby origami_itto on Tue May 17, 2022 6:03 pm

Image
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby everything on Tue May 17, 2022 6:27 pm

I have practiced boxing arts for several decades. In the beginning, I too accepted common views. Every day I accumulated energy into my elixir field until my lower abdomen became as hard as a rock. When I roused the energy in my abdomen, I could throw an opponent some eight or ten feet away. Whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, at any time it was thus. I thought that by accumulating energy through sinking it down, I would likely attain the art’s internal power, and that those who were unable to sink energy to their lower abdomens were all of the external school.
One day, I sent Song Shirong of Shanxi a letter requesting a visit to him since I would be visiting Shanxi. After exchanging conventional greetings, I asked about the distinction between internal and external.
Song said: “Breathing is divided into internal and external, but in boxing arts there’s no distinction between internal and external. If you are good at nurturing energy, then it’s internal. If you’re not good at nurturing energy, then it’s external. Consider the phrase [Mengzi, chapter 2a] “good at nurturing one’s noble energy”. Surely it reveals the deeper meaning of the internal school. When practicing boxing arts, seek stillness through movement. In meditation arts, seek movement through stillness. Truly there is stillness within movement and movement within stillness, because basically they represent a single essence that cannot be branched off into two. Building on this point, when stillness is at its peak, there is movement, and when movement is at its peak, there is stillness, because movement and stillness are so connected that they generate each other. If movement and stillness were used to make distinction between internal and external, how would this not be a case of miscalculating by an inch and being off by a thousand miles?
“My opinion is that there are internal and external types of breathing. First seek for the breath to be fully getting through. The distinction is whether or not the breath is getting through. Those who have never practiced boxing arts or are just beginning to, their breathing usually goes no lower than mid-torso before it goes back up, and so their energy ends up floating upward. This is called ‘hindered breathing’. When the breath is suppressed to an extreme degree, the temperament is affected, and that person develops a combative personality. Such a level of internal fire burns them up until they are scorched.
“If the breath is trained to move downward and go directly to the elixir field, then in the course of time, the heart [the peak active organ] and kidneys [the peak passive organ] will be cooperating. Water and fire will be in a state of mutual benefit [as in hexagram 63 (made of water ☵ on top of fire ☲)], keeping internal fire from burning upward. Breathing can thus be natural and not get turned around mid-torso. In this way, the body can be said to be connected inside and out, upper body and lower, energy will flow smoothly, and the breath can get through to the lower torso. But there’s basically only one kind of energy and it’s a mistake to think there are two. The problem is when it is kept from getting through. Ziyu said: ‘Seek for your lost mind. Once you have found it, your Daoist mind is born.’ [This seems to be a paraphrasing from Mengzi, chapter 6a: ‘The study of the Way is nothing more than the quest for your lost mind.’] This describes the Daoist principle of watching and listening inwardly.”
I said: “All that being the case, can I say I’ve obtained the internal power of boxing arts? My energy has sunk down and my lower abdomen is hard as a rock.”
Song said: “Oh, no no no. Even though energy might be getting through to your lower abdomen, if it doesn’t transform that hardness, it’ll eventually just make you feel overworked, and that isn’t the highest level.”
I then asked: “So how does such a transformation happen?”
Song said: “By way of something seeming like nothing, of fullness seeming like emptiness. If there is hardness in the abdomen, it is not the authentic method. Mengzi said [Mengzi, chapter 4b]: ‘As his [Emperor Shun’s] actions already came from compassion and justice, he did not need to act in a way that would make him become compassionate or just.’ This is the ‘centered harmoniousness’ discussed in the Zhong Yong. It must be understood that what the ancients talked about had both theory and practical application. Within boxing arts, both centered harmoniousness is valued as well as compassionate justice.
“If this is not clear, then even if you practice until you are as agile as a fluttering bird or strong enough to lift a ton, you will be no more than a brash oaf and always be one of the external school. If instead you train to the point of centered harmoniousness, you will then speak knowledgeably about compassion and justice, conducting yourself appropriately and imitating what is right, and then even if you are a mass of muscle, you can be considered one of the internal school. Once you are nurturing energy at a deep level of practice, it will connect inside and outside together, and you will be able to fully determine whether you have it or not. Your energy will be [Mengzi, 2a:] ‘vast and strong’, and you will be ‘nurturing energy with integrity so it will not be corrupted’. There will be no place where it is not there and no moment when it is not thus. In hiding it away or expressing it, its use will be broad even though its presence may be slight.
“It was said by a previous generation: ‘Every single thing is a grand polarity. Every single thing is a single passivity-activity.’ We inherently possess the centered harmonious energy of the universe, for are we not each a grand polarity unto ourselves? It says in the Book of Changes [Great Treatise, part 2]: ‘For what is near, he [Fu Xi] examined within himself. For what is distant, he observed all things.’ [It says in the Xingyi Boxing Classics:] ‘The mind is internal, yet its reasoning extends to all things. Things are external, yet their principles are all there in the mind.’ Internal and external follow the same principle.”
After I had respectfully heard him out, I then realized that the way of boxing arts is the way of Nature, and that the way of Nature is the Way of mankind. I also understood that although boxing techniques and names may be different, they share a common theory. As for the distinction between internal and external, I indeed saw that it is not very penetrating and recognized the principle of dividing into such categories to be unenlightened. This encouraged me to be aware that speech should be mild and action should be natural. While we establish ourselves and make our way in the world, we have an inner sincerity and an outward behavior. Why would boxing arts be any exception to this?
When we look into famous ancient generals, such as Guan Yu or Yu Qian, they all understood the classical concept of righteousness. They are evoked in rituals and music, celebrated in poems and prose, causing people centuries later to still revere and make offerings to them. But what of men like Tian Kaiqiang or Ye Zibei, who only achieved the repute of being brave warriors? In the case of those famous men, internality and externality are in agreement [those men being both righteous and celebrated], everything fulfilled whether it is what was in them or what is displayed to us, whether we view them generally or in detail. But in the case of those other men, they are merely politely remembered, mourned for doing their duty, granted sighs.
Song had also said: “Boxing arts can transform a person’s temperament.” Examining myself, I cannot see any evidence that I am living up to this, but I am constantly haunted by the lessons I have been taught by previous generations. With this year’s publication of the Jiangsu Martial Arts Institute’s [first] annual, the organization commemorates its eighteenth year. I have served the institute for the last two years, despite my meager knowledge and abilities, having been given a sinecure which I do not deserve. Therefore I have here presented some brief remarks I have been told by one of a previous generation as a record of my unworthiness.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... un-lutang/

Respectfully, I think it's better to listen to Sun than strangers on the Internet ... (except that I can't do what he says :-/ )
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 17, 2022 6:43 pm

3 strikes your out
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby Doc Stier on Tue May 17, 2022 8:09 pm

I don't claim to have all the answers, but merely state my own opinion based on observing many hundreds of forms and lei-tai competitors since specifically Chinese martial arts competitions began to be held in the 1980's.

Whether or not these competitors won their lei-tai bouts is not relevant to my opinion. What is of greater relevance to me is why anyone who is trained in one or more fighting arts wouldn't clearly and obviously use what they learned while participating in a combat sport event, if they were actually able to do so? The most likely reason, imo, is that they probably don't know how to do so effectively.

Although such lack of capability may be their teacher's fault in many cases, even that isn't necessarily a discredit to the style or system which they claim to represent. It is perhaps more often due to a fighter's limited study and depth of knowledge regarding the style, which usually results in a limited development of the style's fighting application skills. -shrug-
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby everything on Tue May 17, 2022 8:35 pm

Not everyone who plays basketball can actually ball.

Why would any other activity be any different?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: Neijiaquan vs Western Fighting

Postby windwalker on Tue May 17, 2022 8:37 pm

Doc Stier wrote:Whether or not these competitors won their lei-tai bouts is not relevant to my opinion. What is of greater relevance to me is why anyone who is trained in one or more fighting arts wouldn't clearly and obviously use what they learned while participating in a combat sport event, if they were actually able to do so? The most likely reason, imo, is that they probably don't know how to do so effectively.

Although such lack of capability may be their teacher's fault in many cases, even that isn't necessarily a discredit to the style or system which they claim to represent. It is perhaps more often due to a fighter's limited study and depth of knowledge regarding the style, which usually results in a limited development of the style's fighting application skills. -shrug-


mmmm my experiences seems to be different,,,reaching back into the 70s... :-\


Those that i knew who competed trained for the events they fought in....

to do otherwise thinking they'er going to do well,,,is lets just say not healthy

Doesn't mean outside of competitive events what ever one trains is not effective, only that at competitive events one should know what they'er competing against and be prepared

Some of Chin Shifu's students training..Chin, shifu coaching them
We used to talk about this all the time,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhfl09iukLE


Image

Mike my first teacher in Tibetan White Crane also modified the style a little bit
adjusting to the rule sets of the time back in the 70s

Not Mike's class,,,another student of Gorge Long Shifu's class Ron Dong's school


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xO5RgcMIU&t=8s

using a more traditional approach the way I trained long ago...

Never felt the need to modify my own training for competitive events as it wasn't something i was into....some of my classmates were...
did do a lot of sparring with those that entered them....and others from different styles wanting to test out CMA..


Those I knew who trained competitively, totally different level of training. Very focused for the event.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue May 17, 2022 9:52 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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