Power of Chi - Rob

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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby windwalker on Thu May 19, 2022 9:57 am

RobP3 wrote:
windwalker wrote:
If you’re just using his words, and you don’t follow qi Theroy correct me if I’m wrong.
How can you then claim that what you’re doing is the same.?

Noticed that he does it lying down. Why would he do that.
One reason might be to eliminate mechanical advantage using his frame as in your demo.

Qi is said to be expressed through the body. It can do this in many different ways one of them by making a connection.
Shown in his demo.


Because he isn't using "qi power" he's using body mechanics.

Because he thinks it looks more impressive I can do it seated or laying down too. It's still mechanics. "Be strong! Push hard!" Lean all your weight into my arm....

Expressed via body mechanics. Not some force field.



You can't redefine it using your own terminology to fit your assertion on motive.

It's quite clear within the theory that it said to work from..If one refuses to use the theory or makes up their own terminology what is there to discuss. :P

what you call "force field". is referred to as a "qi Chong" part of what is called wei qi or protective qi..

... :)

The thing here with Adams work is quite old....don't quite understand why he draws the reactions that some feel...
For me he's just another teacher, demoing some of things I have an interest in as other teachers also demo the same things.

.. :)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 19, 2022 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby cloudz on Thu May 19, 2022 10:32 am

you have to leave room for the idea that it is also antiquated theory. so we use more precise (updated) terminology as well as it being translated and interpreted from a foreign language.

the notion that it is a projected force beyond the body doing the main work could quite easily be wholly the wrong idea to how these things really work 99.9999% of the way.

Adam is using contact, his next step down this road - well we all know what that is. It's the minds involved, both in agreement that take that next step. It becomes its own subjective reality. without that physical reality wins out. By that I mean physical trained force - "jin".
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 19, 2022 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby windwalker on Thu May 19, 2022 10:52 am

cloudz wrote:you have to leave room for the idea that it is also antiquated theory. so we use more precise (updated) terminology as well as it being translated and interpreted from a foreign language.

the notion that it is a projected force beyond the body doing the main work could quite easily be wholly the wrong idea to how these things really work 99.9999% of the way.

Adam is using contact, his next step down this road - well we all know what that is. It's the minds involved, both in agreement that take that next step. It becomes its own subjective reality. without that physical reality wins out. By that I mean physical trained force - "jin".



Some of this has been addressed by different teachers of the past

A: [Wang Xiangzhai’s disciple, now deceased] Ao Shi-peng once told me an anecdote that took place while China was in the thrall of ‘Qigong mania’ [in the 80s].
Ao asked M Yao about the ‘fa gong’ [external release of qi], and asked whether Yiquan could produce this kind of ability too.

At first, M Yao was reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, but eventually, seeing that Ao wasn’t going to drop it, sighed and raised his hand. Bear in mind that Ao and M Yao were separated by a dining table at this point.


M Yao lifted his hand and made a very small fa li motion towards Ao’s face. Ao felt as if a large mass of paper had hit his forehead,
it scared him witless. Have you ever come across this ability?

C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan.

His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray.

Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability.

M Yao told me about it in 1978. That year, in order to study Yiquan with M Yao,
I took sick leave dozens of times. I gave up a lot of other things to practice Yiquan.”


https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... n-part-iv/

What was demoed, accords with the theory,,,,
it's said to be based on....

It's like "Qi" have talked with some well known teachers from China, regarding it.

Something that is often discounted or discredited in the west.

They often say,,,yes "QI" is real but not in the way that some portray it..
Of course the limits of it kind of depends on their ability to use it ;D

funny how that works out...
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 19, 2022 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Appledog on Thu May 19, 2022 11:48 am

windwalker wrote:C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan.


As did WXZ. Who stated that qi could not leave the body, and that the emission of qi outside of the body was preposterous.

Actually, if you know what qi is this makes a lot of sense and would be the obvious perceived understanding.

Yi on the other hand -- your intention, is a little different.

windwalker wrote:His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray.

Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability.


People get led astray when terminology and skill sets get confused. What cloudz and bao said is pretty accurate. With proper training and understanding this kind of thing with the waving of the hands is not something you want to rely on to defend yourself. M. Yao knew well; do not lead students astray...
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby windwalker on Thu May 19, 2022 12:02 pm

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:
C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan.


As did WXZ. Who stated that qi could not leave the body, and that the emission of qi outside of the body was preposterous.

Actually, if you know what qi is this makes a lot of sense and would be the obvious perceived understanding.

Yi on the other hand -- your intention, is a little different.

windwalker wrote:His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray.

Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability.


People get led astray when terminology and skill sets get confused. What cloudz and bao said is pretty accurate. With proper training and understanding this kind of thing with the waving of the hands is not something you want to rely on to defend yourself. M. Yao knew well; do not lead students astray...


Your quote makes it look it was something I wrote...didn't write it... :P

More to the article

A: [Wang Xiangzhai’s disciple, now deceased] Ao Shi-peng once told me an anecdote that took place while China was in the thrall of ‘Qigong mania’ [in the 80s]. Ao asked M Yao about the ‘fa gong’ [external release of qi], and asked whether Yiquan could produce this kind of ability too.


Actually, if you know what qi is this makes a lot of sense and would be the obvious perceived understanding.

Yi on the other hand -- your intention, is a little different.


Are you speaking from experience ?

Don't know what "Qi" is

Do use and work with "it" in my practice
Do I care what "Qi" is no ;D

Knowing the theory helps in understanding, does not confer ability or usage... :-\


with some aspects beyond words in any language....

Example, once asked about something, felt from others during our practice in Beijing

Was told " what you feel is "Yi" do not think about it, do not try to force or practice it.
In time you will know "it" " proved to be true, for me...,,

In our practice the use of Yi, Qi, and Shen
was quite distinct, each having a different affect....none of was academic
Labels used only to make distinctions of something that was felt and used.

Only sharing some thoughts on practice and things I've experienced
others may find different....
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 19, 2022 12:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Quigga on Thu May 19, 2022 12:03 pm

Who let the dogs out...

As we all know there is neither Qi in the outside world (so we can't emit), nor is there Yi in the inside world (that could connect the two), so as usual, we are left clueless :D /s

Rob, I didn't talk about traditional electrodynamics. 'Electro/Magnet' is just a metaphor. What causes a galaxy to expand and a blackhole to contract - Yin Yang are the very basic foundation forces of our universe. The mind needs to grasp these qualities and learn to reproduce them - same as in 'be still like a lake', 'roots like tree', 'shoot as if lightning' (<- learning to spark nerve impulses more efficiently. We have separate exercises for that - 'wind lighting Thunder rain')

I agree that the electromagnetic field generated by the body is way too weak to be of much use.

The argument to move forward would be accepting that there's something that's entirely separate from physicality yet closely connected to it. Yet, while sounding as condescending as I possibly can :D , everyone has the right to decide how their world view looks like. Mine isn't better!
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby windwalker on Thu May 19, 2022 12:10 pm

People get led astray when terminology and skill sets get confused. What cloudz and bao said is pretty accurate. With proper training and understanding this kind of thing with the waving of the hands is not something you want to rely on to defend yourself. M. Yao knew well; do not lead students astray...


Would not agree...

my take and have seen this happen...

People develop one aspect, thinking that they can use it
with out developing the other aspect. "usage".

Like a gun at the range,,,,being a good shot...
then thinking being a good shot is enough to face an enemy or go to war...

Different type of training once a level of ability is reached allowing the training..

.
The teacher mentioned that through correct practice the student would develop this according to their talent
with proper practice of the art..not on the process directly related to the ability...

Should one want to learn this might as well practice some kind of qi gong... :)
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 19, 2022 1:13 pm

I duplicated the lying down thing with my student after I saw it
Once again he thought it was funny
No I didn’t film it
No he didn’t go 20 feet away
That’s because he’s not acting
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Appledog on Fri May 20, 2022 2:37 am

windwalker wrote:Your quote makes it look it was something I wrote...didn't write it... :P


Sorry, I thought keeping the C: and context was enough.. not my "intention" to do so :)

windwalker wrote:
Actually, if you know what qi is this makes a lot of sense and would be the obvious perceived understanding.

Yi on the other hand -- your intention, is a little different.


Are you speaking from experience ?

Don't know what "Qi" is

Do use and work with "it" in my practice
Do I care what "Qi" is no ;D

Knowing the theory helps in understanding, does not confer ability or usage... :-\


Yes I am speaking from experience, and although you are sometimes intentionally obtuse about things, if you really don't know or care what qi is then that might be part of the problem. It's always so difficult to tell unless you're together and you can show whats going on. Typing kind of sucks for certain kinds of knowledge transmission and I don't have a lot of time now :( At any rate, actually there are some schools of practice which pass down exactly what qi is and how to train it right from the 10-second beginner phase. Now it's very true that they are in fact beginners and it still takes a long time, possibly very long, to achieve usable skills. But what is also true is that learning this way helps and is valid. It helps tremendously to have conviction -- what you are doing is correct -- it helps people when they can see their progress.

I'm working on some storyboards for a video series. As I mentioned to you several months ago I'll try to get something out in the early part of next year, time permitting. There are other concerns I didn't mention, and I forgot if you're in taiwan but if you still are I would like to come visit and buy you lunch, maybe it might help if a) I'm able to explain to you in person why, and b) if you could demonstrate on me. It's actually hard to find someone who can replicate this on demand and it would make my experiments run much smoother. But, I have in fact found a way to replicate certain things under shall we say 'laboratory conditions' -- not ideal, but good enough for a video perhaps.

windwalker wrote:Was told " what you feel is "Yi" do not think about it, do not try to force or practice it.
In time you will know "it" " proved to be true, for me...,,

In our practice the use of Yi, Qi, and Shen
was quite distinct, each having a different affect....none of was academic
Labels used only to make distinctions of something that was felt and used.

Only sharing some thoughts on practice and things I've experienced
others may find different....


Thanks. But this is where the questions come in. I mentioned qi and stated that yi was different -- your above quote would seem to allow us to agree more than disagree. I would also point out that we are not discussing this in an information vaccuum. The underlying daoist theories (well, to be fair, perhaps only some of them-- but at least the ones I have been exposed to) do not allow the kind of external energy manipulation that you talk about. They go inside the body, inner and inner -- not outside, outer and outer. It may very well be possible that a) you are right and it really is a matter of ultimate skill level and not extension of known theory, but as I have always suspected it is more likely that b) I am right and you are right but c) we're using different terminology, and you're confusing things like yi with qi.

What concerns me is that it is all like a hologram; hold it this way or that and it looks different, but it is the same. Some people say yi-qi-jing, some say qi-jing-yi. What does it all mean? What if we combined them and said yi-qi-jing-yi, would that mean anything or is that just some kind of crazy speculation? I am not so sure, perhaps we are looking at the same object from different angles. Anyways it's already past 530am and I gotta get out of here. I would have posted after practice but I didn't want you to be angry about the quote. Hopefully I'll remember the thing I was just insinuating and come back to post about it later, if anyone is interested.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Quigga on Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 am

Can you tell me why you don't want to go in and out at the same time

Instead of just in

Working with plant, mountain, water, fire, earth Qi (qualities of energy)

Possible both inside and outside

Wu Xing

Water exercises easier near bodies of water etc

Inside outside mutually nurturing each other

Striving to effect people with this can devolve into seeking power for the sake of itself, unknowingly

Education of the heart leads to achievement
Quigga

 

Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Quigga on Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 am

In out seems more balanced :D
Quigga

 

Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby windwalker on Fri May 20, 2022 5:30 am

we're using different terminology, and you're confusing things like yi with qi.


No I'm not, does it matter ?

Speaking as a practitioner of taiji from a perspective based on the practice as taught by my teacher,
not a taiji academic, or historian, although I do find both interesting...

Only sharing some of what I have found in my own work....based on experience and some small skill…

Others may as you do have different thoughts…its not my intention to prove or disprove them
Only perhaps, to allow one to consider ..


Really doesn’t matter regarding the video,,,having one or not…I have asked you, and others to in order to see the practices and answer based on what seems to be the approach. For those wanting to see my work its out there…

Obtuse ,,,Interesting…

Actually I think it’s kind of the opposite. There are no examples out of the many I’ve presented that will change your or anyones else's mind…I post them to show and share a body of work I find interesting, practiced by many known and not so well known teachers showing and explaining the work quite clearly for those interested. Posting them here to share and explain in a way that might be more clear by noted teachers of the work……often as is the case here, the teachers themselves become the subject not the work... :P

Thanks for the offer of tea,,,no, not in Taiwan now…

Considering this thread….
not interested meeting…


have met some from RSF in the US and China
With the understanding that we not bring our meeting on line…have mentioned that should they want to share their thoughts now they can .

This teacher in Taiwan who I have met, is quite open about his teachings.
Has students that can speak English….

Image

He would be much better, higher skill level, has a wide verity of students at different levels that one can interact with…
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Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 20, 2022 8:02 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby windwalker on Fri May 20, 2022 7:23 am

windwalker wrote :
Are you speaking from experience ?

Don't know what "Qi" is

Do use and work with "it" in my practice
Do I care what "Qi" is no 


appledog wrote :

Yes I am speaking from experience, and although you are sometimes intentionally obtuse about things, if you really don't know or care what qi is then that might be part of the problem. 


What Qi is
is not defined…effects and indications of it are

If you “know” what Qi is, would be interested in reading about it.
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby origami_itto on Fri May 20, 2022 7:23 am

Appledog wrote:What concerns me is that it is all like a hologram; hold it this way or that and it looks different, but it is the same. Some people say yi-qi-jing, some say qi-jing-yi. What does it all mean? What if we combined them and said yi-qi-jing-yi, would that mean anything or is that just some kind of crazy speculation? I am not so sure, perhaps we are looking at the same object from different angles. Anyways it's already past 530am and I gotta get out of here. I would have posted after practice but I didn't want you to be angry about the quote. Hopefully I'll remember the thing I was just insinuating and come back to post about it later, if anyone is interested.


You've mentioned yi qi jing and qi jing yi before but I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. Could you provide a little more context about this/these formulae or processes?
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
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Re: Power of Chi - Rob

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri May 20, 2022 8:15 am

windwalker wrote:
RobP3 wrote:Because he isn't using "qi power" he's using body mechanics.


You can't redefine it using your own terminology to fit your assertion on motive.


Yes, you certainly can. If you can reproduce the results then you get to point out what's doing it. All this BS marketing with mystical mumbo-jumbo is window dressing to make it seem impressive and it isn't. The proof is in the pudding and Rob got an untrained person to do it in :10. Saying it comes from fairy dust or unicorn juice or crystal power doesn't change it at all.

ALL your clips that you spam this board with non-stop are fake. They aren't high level anything, they are fake. And this has been clearly demonstrated.
Time to put the QUAN back in taijiQUAN. Time to put the YANG back in YANG style taiji.
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