Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:14 am

have come across a few things in forms that didn't really have an application. whether they would be considered "tcc" is another matter. I think a few things had gotten dropped in purely as training - whether that's repeating the move solo or holding the posture. Having said that my first form was a hybrid of a hybrid, so it's anyones guess where some bits specifically came from.

they can function on different levels too; something like a 'system code' or for specific practice purposes. sometimes a lot packed into one form or different forms for different purposes. whatever it might be the main thing is to understand and know why you are practicing something and what you are getting out of it.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby Steve James on Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:38 am

whatever it might be the main thing is to understand and know why you are practicing something and what you are getting out of it.


There's the rub. If someone doesn't know how a movement can be applied, then there is no intention in the movement -in practice. To have an intention, either someone has been shown, taught the idea, or/and has a great imagination. One problem with training tcc, aopt training kali, silat, wing chun, is that the student is usually taught to practice something without being shown how to apply it. They're just arm waving in the beginning, and it's why it takes longer for the ima person to fight compared to an ema person.

But, I also think that the desire to adhere to a "form" can limit the application. For ex., the 'hooked hand' in the Single Whip. Does the shape have to be exact? Some have argued that it's to crush like an eagle's talon. (There's an old legend about Yang Shao Hao (iirc) that said he could crush walnuts in his hooked hand). Otoh, is it a strike with the knuckles of two middle fingers? Or, is it an upward strike with the wrist? Or, is it a downward pecking at pressure point strike? ....

Otooh, who says someone has to have their fingers/hand in that particular position to do anything? We've all watched hundreds of professional and amateur fights, including street fights on YouTube. Ever seen someone need to use that hand formation? Yet, it's a position that repeats several times during a form. However, this applies to the other forms too. The intention is the thing. If one doesn't see a use, imagine one and adjust as necessary. The classics say the changes are almost infinite, anyway.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:22 am

Otooh, who says someone has to have their fingers/hand in that particular position to do anything? We've all watched hundreds of professional and amateur fights, including street fights on YouTube. Ever seen someone need to use that hand formation? Yet, it's a position that repeats several times during a form. However, this applies to the other forms too. The intention is the thing. If one doesn't see a use, imagine one and adjust as necessary. The classics say the changes are almost infinite, anyway.


Well ;)

No need to watch others, or look for it on Utube..

We use it in my work,,,among other hand formations, whats called the "Beautiful ladies hand" comes to mind.
kinda depends on focus and practice

Have worked with many long term taiji practitioners, who because of their practices locked themselves out of what they were seeking..

The idea of the fingers and wrist in the hook relates to "qi" focusing it though the fingers, creating an emptiness at the apex of the hook hand and wrist joint.
its quite interesting in use as after awhile there is not much if any direct contact needed..


沒有內氣供給的外形動作叫"妄動"那隻是掄胳臂、踢臂,不是打太極拳。

google translate

External movements without internal qi supply are called "arbitrary movements", which are just arm swinging and arm kicking, not Taijiquan.




Its very important to understand the use and why for different frames of practice,, at different points in ones practice and age,
without this understanding at worst it might damage the body in trying to attain it,,,

or in many cases will tend to prevent one from developing that what makes much of it work...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vBj9E_k_Vc

6:33. shows one application of the fingers using whats called "Triangular Force"
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:04 pm

I think there is a great misunderstanding of the structure of the beautiful maidens hand and it’s purpose and usage
Some of the ones I see are the arthritic lady’s hand
It is not only in CMC
I also learnt it in Wu
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:08 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I think there is a great misunderstanding of the structure of the beautiful maidens hand and it’s purpose and usage
Some of the ones I see are the arthritic lady’s hand
It is not only in CMC
I also learnt it in Wu


don't know about other's work or why they use it

In my own work,, we use this idea

Image
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Re: Wu Tu Nan vs Gu Lisheng "usage frames"

Postby everything on Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:15 pm

windwalker wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I think there is a great misunderstanding of the structure of the beautiful maidens hand and it’s purpose and usage
Some of the ones I see are the arthritic lady’s hand
It is not only in CMC
I also learnt it in Wu


don't know about other's work or why they use it

In my own work,, we use this idea

Image


according to the "internet", equilateral triangles are possibly the strongest shape. not sure about triangle vs. sphere...

so - at least theoretically - hmm, very interesting....
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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