Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

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Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby windwalker on Sun May 14, 2023 6:48 pm

Not really a fan of this type of movements, thought some might find it interesting...
With some of the differences in historical accounts of how the form was practiced at one time...




A rare video of Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng in his late 80`s demonstrating kuài Taijiquan 快太极拳 Grandmaster Yang was a graduate of the Xiamen Jing Wu school. He studied the three internal styles of Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan and was a student of Liu Jian Chuan who trained directly with the legendary Yang Cheng Fu.

Liu Jian Chuan earned his living as a bodyguard and claimed that the kuài Taijiquan form was a secret form from the Yang Family. The Yang family deny that this form is a legitimate part of the Yang style curriculum, even though in Douglas Wiles book titled "Yang Family Secret Transmissions"

it states "Not until late in Cheng Fu`s career did retention's of the Chen style jumps, flying kicks, stamps, change of pace, and shouts finally disappear from his form".

Wu T`u-nan, who in 1984 called himself the only living disciple of Yang Shao-hou makes reference to a secret family form for advanced applications with over 100 movements performed in only three minutes.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby wayne hansen on Sun May 14, 2023 10:13 pm

I practice his walking stick form
He is quite well respected in Malaysia
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Appledog on Sun May 14, 2023 11:14 pm

windwalker wrote:Not really a fan of this type of movements, thought some might find it interesting...
With some of the differences in historical accounts of how the form was practiced at one time...


Well the fact is, Tai Chi doesn't (didn't) exist in a vacuum. It is, by it's nature, a highly advanced form of Chinese martial arts. You are going to see many things which appear similar to other highly advanced forms of Chinese martial arts. That shouldn't be a surprise or a secret.

The secret bit is that the Yangs did it. Not the thing itself, what it is, or that it exists. All of that is quite well known stuff in other styles -- even in other style of Tai Chi, as you have said. Anyways, it looks effective. Not entirely my bag either tho. I like bigger movements.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby windwalker on Mon May 15, 2023 7:07 am

Appledog wrote:Anyways, it looks effective. Not entirely my bag either tho. I like bigger movements.


Feel it depends on the focus of one’s practice, as to how the movements look and are trained.

What the teacher does, to my eyes seems to be very common as you noted, that can be found in examples of many other CMA styles.

As to effectiveness. If what one does is very similar or is like everything else . The method itself will tend to depend on the same things that the other methods depend on..
Taiji was / is noted as being very different..

The central guiding point for my own practice for lack of a better word it’s labeled Internal .

This means the how why and what, is quite different .
The practice is not the same.

Thought some might want to see what was supposed to be attributed to some of the old ways the yang style was practiced.
Not a critique of the master or what he demoed.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon May 15, 2023 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Quigga on Mon May 15, 2023 2:55 pm

Looks a bit like praying mantis to me
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Appledog on Mon May 15, 2023 9:42 pm

Quigga wrote:Looks a bit like praying mantis to me


Good eye lol
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby wayne hansen on Mon May 15, 2023 11:09 pm

This is from Nigel Suttons site

Ching
(5th May 1938 - 1st July 2007)
A special tribute page to Master Liang may be found here.

Master Liang He Qing is exceptional for a number of reasons. Not only does he see no conflict between the practice of internal and external martial arts but he continues to practise a wide range of both. In his late fifties, he has been practising martial arts for four decades and his daily training schedule is such that many younger men would find it difficult to follow. Master Liang gets up at 3am, seven days a week, and spends the two hours between three and five in his own practise. Then at five he teaches a class on a grassy playing field by the banks of the estuary of the river Muar. During the rest of the day he practises as and when time allows before going out to teach again in the evening. His work as a traditional Chinese dentist allows him plenty of time to practise in between patients. In fact, Master Liang is a living epitome of one of his favourite pieces of advice, "gong fu is part of everyday life". When he reads the newspaper he does so in a "standing post" posture; when he watches the television he practises his chin na grips on a piece of sandalwood; and before he goes to bed he strikes a wooden bar which protrudes from the wall over his bed, practising a whole range of striking and "bridge arm" moves.

The first art that he trained in was Hainan boxing; at the time this was the only art he had access to as he is Hainanese. Then he moved on to train with Master Song Sao Bo, a Cantonese master of hong quan. Song learnt in a direct line from the famed Wong Fei Hong, who is often described as being a kind of Chinese Robin Hood who lived in Canton province at the turn of the century. Song learnt from Lam Sai Wing, one of Wong's most famous students who was responsible for taking the art to Hong Kong. Master Liang stayed with Master Song long enough to become one of his most senior students. Granted his teaching certificate by Master Song, he began teaching hong quan throughout Johor State. In the ensuing years he took every opportunity to learn whatever he could, eventually spending a number of years training with Master Yang Ching Feng, a graduate of the Xiamen Jing Wu school. From Master Yang, Liang learnt the "big three" of the internal arts: tai chi, ba gua and xing yi. He also learnt a lesser known internal form, wu ji quan. As he learnt and to this day continues to practise so many different styles, he has designed for himself a rigorous and systematic training schedule whereby he works on particular styles on different days. In this way he is able to identify and improve on the particular characteristics of each system. "Chinese gong fu is very simple," he is fond of repeating, "There are no secrets. The only thing that you have to do is to continue practising. Each style has its own unique flavour, characteristics and benefits; once you have identified these then you only have to train them." When learning tai chi from Yang Ching Feng, he learnt only traditional Yang style, a 72 step fast form and san shou A, B and two-person forms. Master Yang did not teach pushing hands because he himself had not learnt it. Despite this Master Liang is still able to make extremely efficient use of his tai chi chuan. This bears out what Master Lau Kim Hong once said; that you could acquire tai chi's fighting skills through learning only form and applications but that pushing hands makes the process much quicker. Master Liang points out that when he first started training there was no freestyle sparring practice, although later on, on his own classes he allowed senior students to do so. The results, however, were less than satisfying, for inevitably there were injuries and often the students got so carried away that the resultant fracas in no way resembled the art they were supposed to be practising, making the whole exercise rather pointless. So it was that he returned to a method more closely resembling his own learning experience whereby the students practised a response to a single attack, gradually adding on additional attacks and counters until a whole sequence of moves could be practised at increasing speed and power. Master Liang is adamant, however, that form training alone is not enough. "Training form and training gong fu are two different things," he asserts,"and require different training methods." The essence of tai chi chuan, Master Liang feels, is the ability to achieve "song", and through "song" to develop "jing" or applied power. This jing may be manifested in many different ways. These are most clearly expressed in his Yang style fast tai chi form. This Master Liang learnt from Yang Ching Feng who learnt it from his teacher Liu Jian Chuan. Liu Jian Chuan had trained directly with Yang Cheng Fu in Shanghai and earned his living as a bodyguard. Like the san shou solo and two-person forms, leading current-day exponents of the Yang family system deny that the fast tai chi is a legitimate part of the Yang style curriculum. Whatever the truth concerning this form's provenance, there is little doubt as to its efficacy in training both the development and expression of power. Through practise the student learns not only how to generate power but also how different kinds of power may be used in different movements. Coupled with these movements is the same kind of explosive breathing used by exponents when practising the nei gong exercises. All-in-all there is a wealth of information contained in this form, although at first sight this may not appear to be the case. Training with Master Liang teaches many important lessons but perhaps the one that he stresses the most is that anyone can acquire the skills of Chinese martial arts but only if they train hard. This is the attitude that he has always kept, namely that if the teacher can do something then it is also possible for the student to do the same.

Master Liang

Master Liang with a staff
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Bao on Tue May 16, 2023 12:23 am

@Wayne, thank you for the biography. Interesting.

Re: large vs small movements. Actually I think he made the movements unnecessarily big and that his performance was intended for the show.

Large movements are for beginners and for learning. Advanced practitioners should, IMHO, move towards small frame practice.

Tai Chi large frame is great training, no doubt about that. Correctly done, it will teach you how to open up the whole body and the joints. What you should learn from large frame is a necessary step to understand and build up any Tai Chi "engine" and shenfa (basic body method). The problem is that in large and medium frames, you keep on releasing the energy. Small frame practice teaches the practitioner to build up, store and circulate the energy. Continuous circulation without interruption.

However, "fast frame" (Kuai jia) in Yang style, as seen in the demo, is still something different than "small frame" (Xiao jia).

I Don't agree with Wile, as WW quoted: "it states "Not until late in Cheng Fu`s career did retention's of the Chen style jumps, flying kicks, stamps, change of pace, and shouts finally disappear from his form". It never had the "Chen style" movements. And it was not developed into any other type of practice.

Large, small, fast frame, and other types of frames and training modes all have their own purposes. Large frame type of practice is very old. You can see similar types of large movements body mechanics in basic Shaolin and Tongbei exercises. Yang Luchan was originally a Shaolin longfist practitioner. Small frame type of movement and exercises has more connections to taoist neigong practice and neidan philosophy.

But fast frame, "Kuai jia," has more in common with weapons practice and military exercises. Weapons forms are usually performed with speed so the practitioner will become used to how the real weapon behaves in real speed, while changing direction, doing different maneuvers etc. They usually vary small and large movements. So I guess the fast frame could be considered putting large and small frame movements together into a more realistic context. -shrug-

Just sharing my own view, YMMV.
Last edited by Bao on Tue May 16, 2023 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Quigga on Tue May 16, 2023 1:25 am

Bao, I agree with you. Nice take. You need different frames for different things. Even if at some point you can do everything in a small frame way ala Ryabko, his body would still benefit from being stretched out from time to time.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 18, 2023 1:17 pm

I don’t see anything special in this form
This is fengs student and a known fighter in Malaysia

https://youtu.be/gg-vLFz4TpY
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Doc Stier on Wed May 31, 2023 10:17 am

Bao wrote:Large movements are for beginners and for learning. Advanced practitioners should, IMHO, move towards small frame practice.

Tai Chi large frame is great training, no doubt about that. Correctly done, it will teach you how to open up the whole body and the joints. What you should learn from large frame is a necessary step to understand and build up any Tai Chi "engine" and shenfa (basic body method).

The problem is that in large and medium frames, you keep on releasing the energy. Small frame practice teaches the practitioner to build up, store and circulate the energy. Continuous circulation without interruption.

I agree completely with the first two paragraphs above, but the third paragraph has definitely NOT been my experience in training pre-1930 Yang Style TCC.

As I was taught, "continuous circulation without interruption" is a priority in all three frames. This is achieved in great part by incorporating unbroken circularity in the transitional movements between named and numbered postures in the form set sequence, along with maintaining a mindful awareness of never suspending or holding the breath, a constant assessment of proper structural alignment, and the correct expression of basic body methods and principles through corrections and refinements from an expert teacher.

In this way, intrinsic energy is continuously circulated and stored internally as part of the gradual energy cultivation process in all three frames. Once this is accomplished, intrinsic energy can also be circulated and released or issued in fighting applications as taught in the small frame fast form set of the older style, oftentimes referred to as a 'fighting form' or 'application set' by the older generation masters.

Thus, the practitioner advances from large to small movements, from slow to fast speed of performance, and from soft to firm energetic expression, ultimately combining and uniting all of these variables in free flowing combinations as needed or desired.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Bao on Wed May 31, 2023 11:56 am

Doc Stier wrote:
Bao wrote:Large movements are for beginners and for learning. Advanced practitioners should, IMHO, move towards small frame practice.

Tai Chi large frame is great training, no doubt about that. Correctly done, it will teach you how to open up the whole body and the joints. What you should learn from large frame is a necessary step to understand and build up any Tai Chi "engine" and shenfa (basic body method).

The problem is that in large and medium frames, you keep on releasing the energy. Small frame practice teaches the practitioner to build up, store and circulate the energy. Continuous circulation without interruption.

I agree completely with the first two paragraphs above, but the third paragraph has definitely NOT been my experience in training pre-1930 Yang Style TCC.

Ask I was taught, "continuous circulation without interruption" is a priority in all three frames. This is achieved in great part by incorporating unbroken circularity in the transitional movements between named and numbered postures in the form set sequence, along with maintaining a mindful awareness of never suspending or holding the breath, a constant assessment of proper structural alignment, and the correct expression of basic body methods and principles through corrections and refinements from an expert teacher.

In this way, intrinsic energy is continuously circulated and stored internally as part of the gradual energy cultivation process in all three frames. Once this is accomplished, intrinsic energy can also be circulated and released or issued in fighting applications as taught in the small frame fast form set of the older style, oftentimes referred to as a 'fighting form' or 'application set' by the older generation masters.

Thus, the practitioner advances from large to small movements, from slow to fast speed of performance, and from soft to firm energetic expression, ultimately combining and uniting all of these variables in free flowing combinations as needed or desired.


You explain it very well, the ideal. However, I only speak in general terms. IMO, modern large frame is often and generally too large, the qi won't be stored, the jin will be broken. If you look at older clips, some of what is called large frame should generally be regarded as medium frame today. The overextended overly stretched movement you commonly see today is something I haven't found in older clip. It's just impossible to continuously circulate the energy if you overextend. It's already gone when you over reach, you have nothing to pull back.

Medium frame is a different thing, the problem has more to do with individual practitioners, as many still break their movement. Releasing should be controlled, but in itself it is not a bad thing. If you just keep storing and storing, your body will become very hot, so sometimes you need to let go in a controlled way to stop the heat from building up. In medium frame practice can be a balanced way to practice. Not everyone understands how to incorporate "unbroken circularity in the transitional movements between named and numbered postures in the form set sequence." But of course, this is the ideal. But then again, the form and frame must allow it.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Doc Stier on Wed May 31, 2023 2:54 pm

Overextending in any frame is usually the result of straightening the body's major joints, especially the knees and elbows, essentially unstringing the 'bows', which can also cause the transfer of too much body weight and momentum outside the base of balanced stability, i.e. the lines from toe to toe and heel to heel between the feet.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:09 am

Doc Stier wrote:As I was taught, "continuous circulation without interruption" is a priority in all three frames. This is achieved in great part by incorporating unbroken circularity in the transitional movements between named and numbered postures in the form set sequence, along with maintaining a mindful awareness of never suspending or holding the breath, a constant assessment of proper structural alignment, and the correct expression of basic body methods and principles through corrections and refinements from an expert teacher.

In this way, intrinsic energy is continuously circulated and stored internally as part of the gradual energy cultivation process in all three frames. Once this is accomplished, intrinsic energy can also be circulated and released or issued in fighting applications as taught in the small frame fast form set of the older style, oftentimes referred to as a 'fighting form' or 'application set' by the older generation masters.

Thus, the practitioner advances from large to small movements, from slow to fast speed of performance, and from soft to firm energetic expression, ultimately combining and uniting all of these variables in free flowing combinations as needed or desired.

In my personal experience, what I described above is a very achievable goal, with proper instruction and training, not an unreachable ideal. But of course, as always, ymmv.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grandmaster Yang Ching Feng 1986

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:31 pm

Overextending is what I call locking the joints
It takes folding out of the equation
Folding is what I consider the main strengths of internal arts
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