the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

hm until this, I've only seen his books and heard his name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoUEQwPeV4A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZFcPmPVycE


honestly I'm not that impressed by how he moves. what do you guys think?

compare to GM Liu Yun Qiao and his students:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHiRqDjTGPw

I too am not impressed. I don't know enough about baji to really say much, but he seems to try to get power out of hurling his body into the movement rather than creating it from the root up, so he looks kinda unstable to me.

From what I have seen over the years his movement is very typical of the Japanese that train Baji. Su Yu Chang has been many of these guys' teacher FWIW.

The problem with Baji practitioners (and system in general) is not lack of power but fundementals of fighting techniques.
For example:
1)The lack of covering the vital parts of the body during techniques (Chin, generally the whole head, liver and abdominals).
2)The kicking techniques are VERY limited (you only have piston kicking in the saggital plane).
3)The punching is good (for power only),but you only have hard right/left and an uppercut (which have no covering or protection).
4)The foot work is like moving in a box and lacks the ability for quick dynamic movement (A horse stance is not ideal for much of anything but weight bearing)
Baji is great for
1) learning dynamic power (fajing)
2) learning full body connection (San szu Jing)

In my Muay Thai classes (also dutch cross boxing/kick boxing) my teachers and coaches tell me "you have good power". The problem is the above stated.

To resolve this problem for myself i have:
Included the punching and kicking (knees and elbows and neck wrestling) systems of Muay Thai (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10's) as well as the the blocking systems of muay thai and dutch cross boxing. (both of these systems have the same numerated models for striking and blocking).
Now if you take Baji apart to it's smallest detail, 90% (of the Liu Yun Qiao system) can be integrated with the set ups and patterns of the above models.
Baji has elbows, throws (minimal), and take down defences.
I use Baji as a clay that I can mold techniques and new ideas into (the overall system). I know (my) Baji must adapt, grow and expand. I am not talking about Baji submission grappling, but growing Baji's strengths and finding and eraticating it's weaknesses.

Kurt,

I really like where you've been going with this lately.

I remember when you still were viewing the world through "baji colored glasses" and then again when you got those glasses ripped off your face and crushed under the MMA jackboot. It's been really kind of interesting watching you re-establish your relationship with your training. I kind of agree with much of what you have said. It's always a good idea to take a hard critical look at your training. As a lineage disciple in the Zhang Xiangwu line, I actually agree with most of your critique.

The past couple days we have had a Wu-tan guy visiting us here in Xi'an. It's been an interesting comparison. Shifu says he's actually trained a bit better than I have. I think he lacks explosiveness and speed but his jin is extremely "zheng". It's very smooth and connected. Shifu says he has an jin which I still lack. On the other hand, in comparing the Wu-tan version with ours I have been reflecting a lot on the tactical details which you just mentioned. Having had experience with Muay Thai and, for that matter, a fair bit Hung Gar, Bagua and am formally training in baguataiji, I am always trying to evaluate the stances through those broader lenses.

After sparring a fair bit with a guy who I consider a kicking "master" this year, I completely re-evaluated the place that kicking has had in my arsenal and pushed my flexibility at least two or three notches higher on my personal priority list.

For punching versitality, actually Taiji has far more to offer. Our system in Xi'an uses Taiji as a supplement to Baji and Baji as a supplement to Taiji. It works both ways.

Our ding shou shi (stabbing elbow) keeps the rear hand a lot higher than I see in the Wu-tan version and the "on guard" stance keeps everything covered.

There ARE weakness and they SHOULD be addressed. It's too bad so many take it personally when you do just that.

im wondering why they do the stamping step to generate power, as in how i works (why the stamp before the step vs solely pushing at the end)

Stamp on the other guy, especially on his lead leg.

I think it is always good to remind those who continue to see baji through "rose colored glasses" that when Liu was at his baji peak, 20 years old, a 40 year old Liu He Praying Mantis Master, Ding ZiChen, knocked him down 3 times, so goes the story---

It seems obvious to me what should be learned by lesson of defeat:---Master the style that defeats you [it was Zhang Xiang Wu who made the arrangements for Liu's disicpleship in Liu He Tang Lang Quan.

One particular wish is the desire to see more shuai jiao elucidation and emphasis---in our system, xiao baji jia is also known as xiao baji shuai jiao jia and I have seen a couple of the shuai jiao applications demonstrated in this form and even walked through a few but I don't know of anyone who has really focused on the shuai jiao aspects of the system and that, to me, is sort of being baji incomplete.

Also, in the actual applications of baji, the horse stance is done away with in the upper levels---let go of, and a stance which is half horse/half bow is used---similar to a Yang's taiji footing [at least the way I understand Yang's taiji].

All of my Liu Da Kai is played in a half horse/half bow and I this becomes optional in the da baji. The only place I have been told to keep it in is the xiao baji jia postures that incorporate [not every stance in xiao baji is a horse stance].

Even in the moving one punch, as shown in Liu's clip, that stance eventually changes to half horse/half bow and in most of the applications we practice on the shield/bag we don't use the stomp. But this is simply my experience and it differs from others and no claim of being the authority on baji [even in Wu Tan system] is being made on my part--so, don't take my comments as Wu Tan(g) and/or baji gospel. LOL

Like Omar, I have found the basic training in baji to be very complementary to both my Chen and Yang's practice--I still think the "internal" aspects of the da qiang training are understated and often mistaken for raw forced power.

If I had to do it over again, i.e. younger, I would have taken my Sokol's wrestling/boxing instruction more seriously and probably used baji training as a refinement to what I had already learned.

Good luck Kurt with your training and development!

Wow! As an avid admirer of Baji (no experience just always like the look) I am really impressed by the honesty and maturity shown by Baji practisioners in this thread. So rare in CMA for people to remove those howsoever-tinted glasses, Sirs I commend you

What/who is a Sokol Bob?

Bob, in a lot of the publications / DVD's / Tapes of Baji that are from outside the Wutang, and even a few from some of the older brothers in Taiwan, there is a TON of Shuai in the Baji! http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/ch ... PG.htm#211 These are some of the best book I have ever seen on Baji, and they are packed with Shuai and Na techniques. Some are not that realistic , but none the less great stuff!
To be honest Bob across the span of Wutan teachers (in NA anyways) I have trained with, Shuai techniques are unfortunately missing from many of their repetoire regardless of style.

Cheers
Jake

Discounting ankle pics and possible trips I have only found two actual throws in the four main forms of the Liu Yun Qiao system:

2:11 THROUGH 2:15
Xiao Baji http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMY1b50ivIA
Osoto Gari:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgjfBnTMn1c

:43 through :46
Lienhuan Chuan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKrl1mC7 ... re=related
Uchi Mata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O93a4H5dEis

Xiao Ba Ji in general is to practice some power generation in basic structures/postures or gong jia.

There are actually many and many throws.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMY1b50ivIA

1. for example, at 0.34 it is called big snake entwining the body.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0O8z8Ad ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMY1b50ivIA

2. at 0.43. heavenly king upholding the pagota.

if you wrap the opponent's arm or push his arm down, move your lead leg to be behind his lead leg, and use your other hand to push his chin upward, the opponent falls to his back. since your lead leg is tripping his lead leg.

--

3. any pushing downward palm may be applied to the opponent's chest or back, while one leg tripping his leg,

they are called gua ta.

--

4. tiger taming posture or fu hu shi is also a throw along the same line.

you fake an upward wrist strike to his chin and then push his open abdomen/chest, while one leg tripping or even hooking the opponent's lead leg etc.

--

5. once you da chan (big entanglement) away the opponent's arm,and kao with your upper arm or forearm to his chest, while one leg tripping his lead leg, etc etc. it is called kao shuai.

--

on and on.

Jake, I saw those books and it opened my eyes with regard to the potential in baji although in 1992 Tony had shown a number of shuai jiao applications in the xiao baji form---Sokol's was a Czechoslovakian club/gym that was found by immigrants. We had one in my hometown outside of Pittsburgh and would attend wrestling/boxing classes on Saturdays along with all sorts of physical conditioning exercise classes. Didn't really take advantage of it [go one Saturday, miss two until you could convince your parents you didn't want to go any more] because I never dreamed I would, at age 30, find myself interested in Chinese martial arts.

SPJ, thanks for posting---you might have noted, I posted a bunch of those because they really caught my eye with regard to baji---for those interested, go to the youtube site that SPJ provided and there are a bunch of them around. I don't know whether they are realistic or not but it shows much of the potential in the baji system.

Kurt, some of the movements indeed are not throws but nonetheless are shuai jiao movements. The opening movement can be used as a shuai jiao movement. I predict that if you return to baji in say 4 or 5 years, you will see or tons of things that will work for you. Too late for me LOL but you have got youth and more information available on your side.

I have some ideas about why shuai jiao is not emphasized in the wu tan baji system but its only my speculation and I don't wish to rehash stuff---One small point, is that there is a lot hero worship regarding Li Shu Wen's striking power, which I suspect was real but biases baji practitioners, in this line, away from the shuai jiao path. Perhaps a mistake, not for Li Shu Wen [who trained with iron staffs in addition to his other physical conditioning] but for those of us who never would reach his level LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMY1b50ivIA

6. at 0.25 the cross fist or shi zhi quan 十字拳

they are also called tying up with a godly rope.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SouZoU7I ... re=related

7. a similar idea is called lion opening his mouth or shi zi zhang kou 狮子张口



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OdUOWSk ... re=related

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