C.J.W. wrote:I feel that there are specific reasons why striking training in TCMA, especially IMA, is mostly done against hard immovable targets with little to no give (e.g., wooden dummies, trees, wall bags) as opposed to softer movable targets such as heavy bags, pads, and focus mitts commonly found in boxing and many non-Chinese fighting arts.
IMO, the two methods are distinct from each other and directly reflect the differences in training goals and fighting styles between TCMA and other systems.
Trick wrote:C.J.W. wrote:I feel that there are specific reasons why striking training in TCMA, especially IMA, is mostly done against hard immovable targets with little to no give (e.g., wooden dummies, trees, wall bags) as opposed to softer movable targets such as heavy bags, pads, and focus mitts commonly found in boxing and many non-Chinese fighting arts.
IMO, the two methods are distinct from each other and directly reflect the differences in training goals and fighting styles between TCMA and other systems.
What are those specific reasons? ......My own experience was/is with the makiwara(striking board) which immediately tells one need to use a connected whole body, but I think a heavy bag tells the same although its surface is "softer". Boxing striking pads one can work more on speed/reaction since the pad holder might change position.......I like the floor to ceiling strike ball
windwalker wrote:Trick wrote:C.J.W. wrote:I feel that there are specific reasons why striking training in TCMA, especially IMA, is mostly done against hard immovable targets with little to no give (e.g., wooden dummies, trees, wall bags) as opposed to softer movable targets such as heavy bags, pads, and focus mitts commonly found in boxing and many non-Chinese fighting arts.
IMO, the two methods are distinct from each other and directly reflect the differences in training goals and fighting styles between TCMA and other systems.
What are those specific reasons? ......My own experience was/is with the makiwara(striking board) which immediately tells one need to use a connected whole body, but I think a heavy bag tells the same although its surface is "softer". Boxing striking pads one can work more on speed/reaction since the pad holder might change position.......I like the floor to ceiling strike ball
One could look at the methods and see the results as shown many times over and over...One method doesn't work out to well against live moving targets.
often becoming the target, of the live moving targets they encounter.
marvin8 wrote:
Chen Village determined traditional TCMA training "doesn't work out too well against live moving targets." Per Chenjiagou (deductive reasoning), push hands, chi sau and partner application exercises that start from contact does not develop enough skill in order to fight sanda. This is why they added movable targets: pad work, kicking shields and heavy bags to their training. Also, this is a possible reason why Wei (taiji) and Ding (wing chun) lost to Xu (MMA). (For the record, I may not agree with Chenjiagou training methods and understand not practicing taiji moves on pads.) Disagree, there is what's called moving step push hands, but agree with the basic premise.
Their current practice methods, strategic assumptions , do not translate well into real world usage .
In the Xu vs Wei and Ding fights, Wei and Ding were not able to defend against, stick to, control or trap Xu's barrage of punches. A reason may be their method of TCMA partner training: going from contact partner training directly to sparring.
In MMA, a small portion of time is spent hard sparring. More time is spent hitting movable targets, partner drills, etc., while working as a team.
Coming from hitting CMA style Background. As a teenager when I first saw Taiji My feeling was that it would never work . Now after many years of practicing tiaji to understand it, as an older man I've made the corrections to it, based on what I felt looking at it as a young teen.
Pad work is not a moving punching bag. Both offense and defense are trained simultaneously.
Focus mitt training can help one: improve punching skills (technique, power, speed, endurance, accuracy, timing) improve offensive skills (angles, combinations) improve defensive skills (blocking, parrying, slipping, rolling), footwork, etc. Goals are similar to TCMA without starting from contact.
...I like to see how my Taiji training comes into play in daily situations...
windwalker wrote:marvin8 wrote:
Chen Village determined traditional TCMA training "doesn't work out too well against live moving targets." Per Chenjiagou (deductive reasoning), push hands, chi sau and partner application exercises that start from contact does not develop enough skill in order to fight sanda. This is why they added movable targets: pad work, kicking shields and heavy bags to their training. Also, this is a possible reason why Wei (taiji) and Ding (wing chun) lost to Xu (MMA). (For the record, I may not agree with Chenjiagou training methods and understand not practicing taiji moves on pads.) Disagree, there is what's called moving step push hands, but agree with the basic premise.
Their current practice methods, strategic assumptions , do not translate well into real world usage .
windwalker wrote:I think the type of pad / bag work that one uses and trains with, is dependent on the type of power delivery that one focuses on.
Taiji in its current form is recognized through traditional styles. Any updates or hybrids are not considered for the most part as being Taiji
In today's time there are no modern representatives of people using Taiji In a traditional sense in the ring.
The Chen guys in the clips should have had a couple of Signature movements that they could point to as representative of their style if that was the point. Otherwise no need to mention they'er chen Taiji stylist .
Trick wrote:If/when i get the chance to work on a heavybag I don't do " as hard as I can" strikes on it and a mix of I move around it and bag move around me in so keeping close contact with the bag with hands, arms, shoulders, back and hips, quite different from striking only as I did during my karate days.
What does it mean to be formless?
Taijikid wrote:Lets just say that, if you fixate on just doing the FORM right, be it Chen, Yang, Wu or what ever style. You are not doing Tai Chi correctly.
doing what right?
The emphasis should be on the function/application of each move under various conditions/situations. That's why the old Masters got it right! That's why there are so many STYLEs of Tai Chi.
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