Ma Hong

[Interloper]

the point is that no one young or old in taiji can deal with the best fighters in world.

Stan,
As Allan noted, you're comparing apples to oranges. If you want to be able to fight UFC and MMA, you have to fight UFC and MMA. This ain't to say that a fighter couldn't incorporate taiji internal body skill development into his training (not that it's likely to happen) and have an edge over the non-internal competition.

[Doc Stier]

the point is that no one young or old in taiji can deal with the best fighters in world.

And how do you know this to be a fact without exception? You have no right or authority to speak for all practitioners everywhere.

There are always some exceptions, so it's wiser to simply say that such is your personal opinion!

Doc

[Andy_S]

And as we all know, Doc is just shy of 23.

[beenawhile]

Even Kimbo, the quintessential street fighter, lost in his most recent UFC fight - and he's a beast. UFC spawned MMA, which takes from all martial arts and strips them to their most effective and useful basics. Serious MMA fighters train every martial art out there, all the time. If you want to learn fighting, learn MT, Judo, Wrestling, and ground grappling. Taijiquan might help people in fights, but it's not a martial art one would primarily learn to fight and be competitive against professionals. It's just not comprehensive enough. Taijiquan can help some fighters (possibly) in their training, and, likewise, the other martial arts can help understand what taijiquan aims to develop in its practitioners. They should feed off each other. As to Ma Hong vs UFC fighter - well, come on, let's keep stuff real here.

Cheers,
P

former "Taijitaijiquan", now sidelined with a broken elbow from MMA practice.

[Adam S]

Firstly yes well

I'll just leave it at-excellent post by Doc

secondly

"it's not a martial art one would primarily learn to fight and be competitive against professionals. It's just not comprehensive enough'.......this I take great issue with-depending on how it's meant......if you mean how the vast majority of people train it these days-then yes okay that's fair enough, if your talking about the art itself then I think your dead wrong!!!

[Bhassler]

"Best fighter in the world" depends a lot on context. UFC guys didn't do so good against multiple armed opponents, even just playing:
http://ufc.com/marines

UFC itself would probably be different if it allowed kicking and striking a downed opponent, elbow strikes to the base of the skull, or even steel-towed boots, for instance. Obviously those things are all banned for good and valid reasons, but context makes a world of difference. Just sayin'.

[ChiBelly]

"Best fighter in the world" depends a lot on context. UFC guys didn't do so good against multiple armed opponents, even just playing:
http://ufc.com/marines

UFC itself would probably be different if it allowed kicking and striking a downed opponent, elbow strikes to the base of the skull, or even steel-towed boots, for instance. Obviously those things are all banned for good and valid reasons, but context makes a world of difference. Just sayin'.

IMO, there is no good reason to disallow kicking a downed opponent, other than to encourage both people to go to the ground and make the sport more interesting. Whether you are kicked in the head while you are standing up or lying down, you've still been kicked in the head.

[AllanF]

Firstly yes well

I'll just leave it at-excellent post by Doc

secondly

"it's not a martial art one would primarily learn to fight and be competitive against professionals. It's just not comprehensive enough'.......this I take great issue with-depending on how it's meant......if you mean how the vast majority of people train it these days-then yes okay that's fair enough, if your talking about the art itself then I think your dead wrong!!!

I would agree with this the problem with taiji is not the art, the art is fine. It is the way many practice the art and are indeed taught it. Most stay stuck in push hands and bad push hands at that. (eg believing that it is high skill to rock backwards when pushed on the chest to the extent that the front foot comes off the ground is not good push hands and to actively teach this as such is further proof of a mediocre, at best, level of understanding). As was said by someone better than i, "The feet are a lovely indicator of what is actually going-on in the body; front and back, side to side, they show what the knee/ hip connection is like, and then how it is relating to the upper body and where any tension is. It is one of reasons people get mad when you analyze popular teachers in video and they are demonstrating a loss of balance here and there on their feet in simple waza they have done a million times. It is sooo obvious yet I have sat in a room full of people who don't have clue to what they are missing."

If more people learnt to incorporate sparring and a ground game, or at least get experience of dealing with a good ground game then it can only benefit the art. However there are some problems here, 1) most people who do taiji are only in it for health (in fact even here in China most people think taiji is not for fighting) 2) Even those who train it, it is only a small minority who actually comprehend the principles AND do the hard training in order to burn the principles into the body.

These comments are not only for Taiji but far all IMAs, I remember reading somewhere (don't ask me where) that Cheng Manqing said that even some of his own students didn't believe it could work. Sagawa Yokiyoshi, of Daitoryu fame, said the same thing about his own students. Interloper's post is also spot on, there is not reason that people can not incorporate IMA body methods into MMA. But as stated above, only a tiny amount believe it has any merit. It is ironic that things always seem to go in circles, as when people like Yang Luchan, Takeda Sokaku, O'Sensei, Dong Haichuan first came on the scene they were all tested in combat, why because some felt that these soft arts were BS and others because for some reason, even though these soft arts are BS these same men who practised them where meant to be the baddest mofos around! Funnny that eh?

Speaking of Sagawa, Ellis Amdur was interviewed (on usaikido...i think) and when asked about Sagawa and the UFC his response was simply "could Sagawa win in the UFC? I don't know and i don't care! The point is that he continued to get better!" Couldn't have put it better myself!

[Bodywork]

interesting quote Allen!
I think your own comments -as well as interlopers- are spot on. Stan's "one liners" don't help him make his points but his points about taiji players and MMA fighting is accurate. FWIW, he wasn't saying something against WHJ as someone thought- he is a student of his, he was makng observations about them using IP in the more stressful venue of MMA. He has seen me do MMA and he has seen me with a few master class Chen guys in an I.P testing format, so he has some opinions from that exposure. I am trying to make more positive comments of both MMA and I.P.! I happen to think it would all come together -if- the Chen guys, and any traditional IP arts for that matter, got into that type of training within their respective arts. IOW, soft or Internal power is highly effective if:
a) you actually HAVE internal power
b) you train and learn to do MMA.

At the last seminar I did, that school had an outside BJJ and MMA coach with an established competition and fight record in BJJ and MMA. He was training them once a week. Not only was he untinterested in coming to the seminar, he made some rather dismissive comments about soft training. He showed up for an hour to watch out of what he said was "Just curiousity." So I waived the hello's, took him on the mat and went at; first letting him try to take me down for about fifteen minutes (he got thrown for his trouble repeatedly) then we added punches, kicks, and everything else for another fifteen till he called it quits. Let's just say he might have had trouble going to work Monday looking like he did.

I continue to say that the problem with the soft arts is not the principles and conditioning that gain you internal power. The real problem is that the vast majority really do not-HAVE-internal power in the first place. And in the second place, they have never fought a real fight a day in their lives. So, even were they to "get" internal power to one degree or another at some point in their lives, they wouldn't have fecking clue how to use it under pressure. Therefore any serious MAer looks at them and dismisses them...and rightly so. As most guys who do MMA know; just the mental aspects of playing someone adds a pressure that can take apart people who havenlt trained in freestyle. And you can only learn to create and deal with that type of pressure "by going there," not by imagining you get it.

I have hope and confidance in the internal arts ability to deliver, simply because I trained in soft arts WHILE still doing jujutsu and MMA. So I have every hope that anyone who wanted to could do the same-many even better if they start younger. I think if you took some of the top Chen players, or any other top IP guys and taught them how to "really" fight AND then trained them -in fights; people would be very surprised with what could be developed- not the least of which might be the traditional IP guys themselves. Granted they would have to change their end goals, and the "way" they fought, but they would not have to change their principles and IP one whit. I.P. used in MMA allows you to do things that screws with normaly trained guys and gives significant advantages. IP was tailor made for jujutsu. More's the point if you really know what the hell you are talking about in the first place-it allows you to hit and kick like a fecking truck with no wind up, and repeatedly so on the inside, and makes you very hard to throw, all of which makes you one tough son of a bitch to fight. Past that it is up to any individual to reach certain goals; add talent, training, fight experience, yadda, yadda, and you would have a new way to look at the I.P. arts.

The MMA get you competant relatively fast, (most) guys are in and out in 5 years or so, and I.P takes longer but there is no reason you cannot train both is there? I.P. people can rightly say that they will be stronger in later years, but we have to fair in saying that they are on their feet training in those later years, where most external guys are not, because of the intense nature of that work, they quit.
Mark my words, there will be an increasing interest in senior jujutsu/ MMA "training" that is less intense but allows seniors to keep their game. Just wait.

Almost forgot, the guy who doubted soft power at the seminar? He stayed all weekend and took Monday off of work to train it some more. Now as he is coaching them in how to fight- they, as a group are training I.P.
It is his opinion that it is "freakishly effective" and he wants to get it.
Dan

[Adam S]

Bloody nice post bodywork

[Andy_S]

Dan:

You know, it would really be interesting to see some of what you do. As you now teach seminars, is there any reason that you could not post a couple of clips? Consider it brand building, visibility enhancement, online marketing or just plain information provision.

I ask as I really have no idea what you do beyond that the fact that it is some form of Bujutsu that trains IP and is applicable to MMA. Those three things combined are very rare, if not unique. Given that people who have met you, like Tom and Derek, speak highly of your material, I, would be most curious to see some of it, if only a snippet.

[GrahamB]

Dan:

You know, it would really be interesting to see some of what you do. As you now teach seminars, is there any reason that you could not post a couple of clips? Consider it brand building, visibility enhancement, online marketing or just plain information provision.

I ask as I really have no idea what you do beyond that the fact that it is some form of Bujutsu that trains IP and is applicable to MMA. Those three things combined are very rare, if not unique. Given that people who have met you, like Tom and Derek, speak highly of your material, I, would be most curious to see some of it, if only a snippet.

+1

Failing that- any clips of your students training your material that aren't too bad?

[Bodywork]

Hi guys
I just posted this on aikiweb I think its gives you an idea of my interest and involvement.

If you (or anyone else) is intereted it's best to bug me/ write me/ yell at me/harrase me/ throw things at me...in P.M. Please be kind and remember I am not a professional teacher, nor do I want to be. This is just fun for me and I do what I can...WHEN...I can. So, if you want to hang with us, realize that is just what it is to us...informal, hanging out with the guys!
I have managed to do six seminars since last fall in support of my original "Teachers Only" seminar plan. They remain unadvertized and off the web. While they are geared mostly for teachers. I have made many exceptions in letting in various students to these get-togethers. I am doing one next week (it's already full) with several students in attendance who write me here in P.M. These things are usually already full before they start so it's best I know you are interested. I just think that two or three full days is a better way to go instead of a "one day thing."
Cheers
Dan

Please understand (and don't be offended) that I am not interested in video or showing off. I am not "brand building, needing visibility enhancement, or online marketing" Hell I have no brand TO market and my seminars are full before they start...unadvertized. So none of that stuff peaks my interests. Yes, I have been told by some pretty serious old guard guys that have been around the block in China and Japan that what I am doing is rather unique, but in the big scheme of things who cares! I am just me. The commitment to "be a teacher" is not something I can support in my lifestyle. Make sense?
Hey, I like chatting and hanging out on some Budo boards when I am bored at work, (I hope I am not intrusive), but other than that you will just find me training; either in my dojo, or occasionally teaching in others as the world goes by. As it is I do about six seminars a year and even that stresses the hell out of me. When I stand there in a room with thirty teachers staring at me- I remember why I eloped !!! And personally, I think I suck, and I need more work...a lot of it. I can't wait to see what I can do ten years from now.
Hope that helped clarify things a bit.
Dan

[BillyK]

i love people who think mma is real fighting

true story: two years ago, some bad words flew between me and professional swiss mma fighter (and a champion in some backyard league to boot!). he didn't want to fight me because

a) no rules
b) i'm a few weightclasses above him

cheap excuses from someone who was telling me "you don't know anything" and "your training will never work in real life" a few minutes before.

mma is nothing more than a schoolyard brawl, it's just that the kids are big and do roids. if you want a real fight go to the local hell's angel chapter and tell them they have small cocks, or go downtown at night and insult some turk's mother.

what the fuck is going on with this "mma is best" fairytale? the way most people on here talk, you could think that training in mma automatically raises you above the level of mere human and makes you invincible.
pro tip: you can also be a sucky mma fighter and get your ass handed to you by some hick karateka from bumfuck, ohio. wearing a tapout shirt, training 6 hours a week in 3 martial arts and masturbating to the last ufc don't make you magically invincible, contrary to popular opinion.

yeah, yeah, i know that will be a shock to many of you, but it's really true! mma fighters... can LOSE fights. it's totally possible.

btw, we had the exact same shit with boxing and wrestling in the 90s, when everyone was afraid of the big bad golden gloves champion and dreaded the day a highschool wrestler challenged him. it was accepted fact that no martial artist could ever survive a fight with a boxer or wrestler, let alone win it. in the 80s, it was kickboxing. and so on, and so on.

[Adam S]

nice to see there's some people out there with sense-thanks for the posts