the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

chicagoTaiJi wrote:

DeusTrismegistus wrote:I think master Su has more knowledge of the classics in his little finger than most of us will ever have.

so, why is it that why do you look up to this guy?

Su Dong Chen is widely considered one of the best fighters in the IMA world. Right up there with Wai Lun Choi. I see a lot of stuff I don't practice or I don't understand. However when some of the people in my class watch me do a form I do things they may not like or understand either. What I do isn't wrong, it is simply different. It is usually combining various movements that they practice separately or moving my body differently, having my foot in a different position. My hips open very readily but don't close well. I can throw a side thrust kick with my toes on my standing foot at about 200 degrees from the angle of the kick, However it hurts if I try to hold my foot at 90 degrees which is the "ideal" position.

So quite simply, this man makes his shit work and can has internal power in spades, who am I (or anyone else except his teacher) to tell him he is doing it wrong? I don't think so highly of myself to think I can tell what a master with decades more experience than me is doing wrong. To the uneducated eye the "principles" you hold so dear may seem violated, but you honestly can't tell for sure because you are not Su Dong Chen, you don't have his experiences or his understanding of the art.

You are free to not like it. I am not sure I like it myself. However I respect the man's knowledge and experience which is far greater than my own. To think you can tell what someone like master Su is doing wrong is simply arrogant. A better thing to do would be to ask yourself why he can do it differently and still get results? Perhaps his way of doing it is better than your own? Without feeling him you will never know.

DeusTrismegistus wrote:and can has internal power

Um, it's "can haz", not "can has".

Without feeling him you will never know.

QFT

Tai chi classics and their interpretation is a pretty contentious issue in itself..

oh and Mr Su is totally awesome!

No classics were violated in the filming of this video.

SPJ wrote:

the vid speaks for itself.

1. the start up posture was to practice to rise the qi all the way to bai hui xue on top of the skull coupled with raising up the wrists. and then sink qi all the way down to yong quan xue at the bottom of your sole coupled with lowering the wrists and bending the knees.

2. he then varied the posture.

opening (Kai) and closing (He) as noticed and pointed out, but he also raised/rose and then moved to the left and sat on hip/sank, then moved to the right/sat on hip/sank and then back to center and then rose and sank again coupled with open and shrink/close.

his variations accentuated more practices of opening, closing, rising and sinking.

--

my point is that the hand moves are only secondary or coupled with rise and sink and not coupled with open and close.

which is ok.

DeusTrismegistus wrote:

chicagoTaiJi wrote:

DeusTrismegistus wrote:I think master Su has more knowledge of the classics in his little finger than most of us will ever have.

so, why is it that why do you look up to this guy?

Su Dong Chen is widely considered one of the best fighters in the IMA world. Right up there with Wai Lun Choi. I see a lot of stuff I don't practice or I don't understand. However when some of the people in my class watch me do a form I do things they may not like or understand either. What I do isn't wrong, it is simply different. It is usually combining various movements that they practice separately or moving my body differently, having my foot in a different position. My hips open very readily but don't close well. I can throw a side thrust kick with my toes on my standing foot at about 200 degrees from the angle of the kick, However it hurts if I try to hold my foot at 90 degrees which is the "ideal" position.

So quite simply, this man makes his shit work and can has internal power in spades, who am I (or anyone else except his teacher) to tell him he is doing it wrong? I don't think so highly of myself to think I can tell what a master with decades more experience than me is doing wrong. To the uneducated eye the "principles" you hold so dear may seem violated, but you honestly can't tell for sure because you are not Su Dong Chen, you don't have his experiences or his understanding of the art.

You are free to not like it. I am not sure I like it myself. However I respect the man's knowledge and experience which is far greater than my own. To think you can tell what someone like master Su is doing wrong is simply arrogant. A better thing to do would be to ask yourself why he can do it differently and still get results? Perhaps his way of doing it is better than your own? Without feeling him you will never know.

If someone punches you and you use your arm like that, you will see what the result is....

Alrightythen... Heavens knows I tried, but things are getting pretty clear now, I think.

I suggest we stop feeding the troll.

chicagoTaiJi wrote:
If someone punches you and you use your arm like that, you will see what the result is....

Which of the hundred or so different ways to move your arm that were demonstrated are you assuming is the prefered poor punch defense?

There were several that are extremely effective in jamming, slipping, wrapping, and barring an incoming punch, specifically. Some shown are more about pulling and twisting, dodging and punching.

But even so, it's a bit of a moot point, I don't think anyone on this board CAN use their arm in the way Master Su does.

try this experiment:

have someone give a straight punch, hard and fast, but only use your arm to try to block it.
do not move your waist or knees or chest. only the arm.
open up your chest first (make your upper back flat).
then as the punch comes, move your arm upwards to block the punch.

see how in control you feel when you do that.

now try it when you move your knees and waist at the same time. which way feels better? which way can withstand a punch with someone's full body weight behind it? which way feels more comfortable?

Ah, so what you're saying, simply, is that you don't see any full-body connection.

Not all movement is visible externally. The mere changing of lines of tension can create a huge amount of force, particularly against an incoming blow.

Do you have a timestamp in particular in any of the vids which shows isolated limb movement against a presumed incoming strike?

Su Dong Chen is well known to many, but none-the less here are some mostly documented reasons to admire his skill;
He was a top flight fighter under Hong Yi Xiang, the founder of Tang Shou Dao. He was a senior brother at that school to Luo Dexiu and actually was Luo's inspiration to study under Master Hong. He traveled to china and japan and defeated many famous fighters and teachers both in public and behind closed doors. He was summoned by the legendary fighter, Master Chang Dong Sheng to become his pupil. Master Chang was a fighter who killed in the army, and took open challenges for decades and never lost. How many people do you think were so good that Chang asked for them by name to become his student? I'm sure there's more.

If someone with no understanding of the method tries to do what Su is doing they are probably going to screw it up as with any other ima. Having never felt Mr. Su's skill my opinion of it is based on the opinions of those who I trust in martial arts, and what I can see for myself on video. He has body control, coordination, integration, and a presence of yi in his movements and postures at a very high level. Criticising his approach to training or his presentation of the form may carry some validity, but to question him as a martial artist in any way, is utterly ridiculous. This guy is not someone who is a rock star like Chuck Liddel or something. If he was doing now what he did in the seventies though, he would be scaring the shit out of guys like that though. That's my little synopsis of why you should look up to and respect Mr. Su. And remember he's like 50 something too.
J

chicagoTaiJi wrote:try this experiment:

have someone give a straight punch, hard and fast, but only use your arm to try to block it.
do not move your waist or knees or chest. only the arm.
open up your chest first (make your upper back flat).
then as the punch comes, move your arm upwards to block the punch.

see how in control you feel when you do that.

now try it when you move your knees and waist at the same time. which way feels better? which way can withstand a punch with someone's full body weight behind it? which way feels more comfortable?

It is actually quite easy to block a straight punch with only your arm. It doesn't take much effort at all. "External" stylists do that all the time if you think that "whole body power" is a defining charatceristic of taijiquan. Using your whole body to block can give you certain advantages vs using just the arm, but using only the arm is all that is really necesaary.

DeusTrismegistus wrote:

chicagoTaiJi wrote:try this experiment:

have someone give a straight punch, hard and fast, but only use your arm to try to block it.
do not move your waist or knees or chest. only the arm.
open up your chest first (make your upper back flat).
then as the punch comes, move your arm upwards to block the punch.

see how in control you feel when you do that.

now try it when you move your knees and waist at the same time. which way feels better? which way can withstand a punch with someone's full body weight behind it? which way feels more comfortable?

It is actually quite easy to block a straight punch with only your arm. It doesn't take much effort at all. "External" stylists do that all the time if you think that "whole body power" is a defining charatceristic of taijiquan. Using your whole body to block can give you certain advantages vs using just the arm, but using only the arm is all that is really necesaary.

I don't think it's possible for anyone with any significant level of taijiquan practice to "block using only the arm" unless they are tied to a tree or something, regardless of what is perceived to be in motion.

TaoJoannes wrote:

DeusTrismegistus wrote:

chicagoTaiJi wrote:try this experiment:

have someone give a straight punch, hard and fast, but only use your arm to try to block it.
do not move your waist or knees or chest. only the arm.
open up your chest first (make your upper back flat).
then as the punch comes, move your arm upwards to block the punch.

see how in control you feel when you do that.

now try it when you move your knees and waist at the same time. which way feels better? which way can withstand a punch with someone's full body weight behind it? which way feels more comfortable?

It is actually quite easy to block a straight punch with only your arm. It doesn't take much effort at all. "External" stylists do that all the time if you think that "whole body power" is a defining charatceristic of taijiquan. Using your whole body to block can give you certain advantages vs using just the arm, but using only the arm is all that is really necesaary.

I don't think it's possible for anyone with any significant level of taijiquan practice to "block using only the arm" unless they are tied to a tree or something, regardless of what is perceived to be in motion.

That very well may be true.

XiaoXiong wrote:He was summoned by the legendary fighter, Master Chang Dong Sheng to become his pupil.

how long did he train under Chang? You know Chang's specialty is wrestling, not tai chi ?

If someone with no understanding of the method tries to do what Su is doing they are probably going to screw it up as with any other ima. Having never felt Mr. Su's skill my opinion of it is based on the opinions of those who I trust in martial arts, and what I can see for myself on video. He has body control, coordination, integration, and a presence of yi in his movements and postures at a very high level. Criticising his approach to training or his presentation of the form may carry some validity, but to question him as a martial artist in any way, is utterly ridiculous. This guy is not someone who is a rock star like Chuck Liddel or something. If he was doing now what he did in the seventies though, he would be scaring the shit out of guys like that though. That's my little synopsis of why you should look up to and respect Mr. Su. And remember he's like 50 something too.
J

I guess I'm not as easily impressed as you are...

I guess I'm not as easily impressed as you are...

it's really weird... pop off the flowah for a while, come back and trollin' assholes still pronounce on shit they don;t really understand