Bagua Leg SPJ

[Bob]

If the thread goes in the direction of pi gua, then so be it--its okay with me!

Everything that Count says about pi gua is also what I know, however, about 6 months ago I was given a different insight about pi gua training that I knew but never thought much about.

From the day we started training in the Wu Tan(g) material given to us by Tony, we always warmed up with various static postures from pi gua that involved hitting the body [it is often referred to here as pai da but there is also another term I can't remember]. We have, as probably most Wu Tan practitioners have, a set of standing pi gua body striking exercises that are standard---I have seen them in the one Xi'an group of Chen practitioners but we do them out of a horse stance and they use a bow stance. Jou Tsung Hwa also taught two exercises similar to what we do.

We also do a couple of pi gua exercises that involves extensive waist/back/kua movements---you can see most of these exercises in the forms posted. The exercises are not big secrets but the timing, employment,body effect and functional explanation may indeed the "key".

However, we always learn these static postures first, then moving, and finally the form. There also is static exercise where you do not strike the body but do standing waist movements and then hold the postures in a meditative like state, direct the breath/blood [okay qi] and thought to the extremeties of the hand. I don't have too much experience in the hand training but we have 3 or 4 exercises for striking pads or we use coyote skins. We also have exercises similar to the shaolin [longfist] where we strike the ground from a reverse bow stance---we put a brick on both sides, near the feet and strike the brick lightly.

What is interesting is that the pi gua system has a lot of forms and weapons and we only use two basic forms, pi gua dao, pi gua double dao and I think a pi gua spear form [not sure--in the 1980s I saw two people being taught the pi gua dao/spear fight and I remember asking if the spear was from the pi gua system and the answer was a grunting "yeah" LOL--

Long winded but about 6 months ago, we got into a discussion about pi gua and why we didn't go deeper into the traditional system and the answer was something along the lines of the basic training---I was told, "don't you see why we do all this basic body striking for all these years?" "No!" "Pi gua has extensive body conditioning for both the outside and the inside---why do you think we hold the postures like zhan zhuang and use the mind?" "The 4 body striking exercises you did from the first day you started effect the kidney, liver, heart and lung---shakes everything inside---why I tell you to keep your mouth closed when striking the body? You can hurt yourself very badly is you strike your body hard and the mouth is open. Why we used to follow the season for these exercises?"

So what I got from these conversations that pi gua, at least the way we use it, in addition to what Count said, is our way body condiditioning.

When I first started I had a teacher which taught a system for body conditioning and also some hung gar like exercises. I always thought body conditioning was simply characteristic of southern systems---well, no one said it directly but it sounds like, in addition to being a good martial arts system for fighting, much of the pi gua basics is all about body conditioning--preparing one to take body blows and also to prepare the body to give body strikes. My thoughts only, but kinda like the body conditioning systems found in southern styles but with a "softer" different methodology and unfortunately for many, based on the concept of qi [though not obsessive so insert blood flow/mind for qi].

Now it makes sense why I kept thinking about the Cleveland Clinic study that I posted previously about how using your mind to exercise the hand could increase grip strength by 30%. Perhaps these guys are stumbling onto the edges of a system of principles that have been employed in some systems of Chinese martial arts for hundreds of years.

So pi gua basic training is an excellent system of body conditioning. Now I understand why we did so many of the static body striking/palm striking exercises--for us, the forms less important than these basic buidling blocks and I see the logic of step by step training which has its final expression in the form. And again, through the pi gua training, as one example, I see the futility of forms collection and the importance of the relationship of ji ben gong training to the form itself.

I never realized how much of the basic pi gua training was incorporated in the classes taught at the school. At least 5 basic pi gua static exercises were included in our warm-ups, right from the beginning and consistently in every class. A realization originating in my first class, 1988---took this long to see it! LOL

[edededed]

Ah well, I might go for it if I weren't already learning something... (Can't really pursue too many things at once...)

I do enjoy watching pigua videos occasionally, though

[count]

Aw, come'on, As it's thanksgiving here, I know I will put more than the bird on my plate. piqua is like the cranberry's that balance the Turkey.

Have to read Bob's post, but we also do the pai da and we always did basics as warm ups without classifying them from piqua. just to get the blood flowing and really good for the back. We all know what a flexible spine will do for your bagua.

[edededed]

Nah, I have too much suckage already - I am thinking of thinning what is on my plate as it is. (Maybe if I was smarter or more talented - as it is, if Han Fushun was "Han the Idiot," then I am "Ed the King of Idiots.")

But cranberry and turkey sure sounds good to me right now.

As for qi and Wutan - I think you have lots of qi, actually, judging from the rather esoteric writings of people like Su Yuzhang and so on that I have read.

[Bob]

Here is a form from the Gong Bao Zhai line:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA9yjrQl ... re=channel



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li0hhN6N ... re=related

[count]

Here is a form from the Gong Bao Zhai line:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA9yjrQl ... re=channel

That's cool Bob,

I enjoyed the first one very much. He Jing Han and one of his students showed me this form without all the high kicks. Basically, all the kicks above the waist were in the footwork and turning. But this has all the high kicks put back and it's pretty identical to our version. Cool comparison.

Jeff

[Bob]

Agreed---amazed at the "variations on a theme". Enjoying Jason's bagua nei gong dvd.

[middleway]

Count,

Unless i am mistaken, that is one of He Jing hans older students.

Just FYI.

Cheers
Chris

[shawnsegler]

Yeah, some of the moves are a little different, but mostly the difference is just in the degree of twist ( which is pretty much like frame in this context) and the relation of the limbs to the body (actually frame).

I'd really like to meet up with you guys sometime and learn more about why you guys do what you do with the same stuff.

Velly intellesting!

Best,

S

[edededed]

Hmm - wonder if Gong Baozhai and Liu Yunqiao met and trained together at all after moving to Taiwan?

Interesting how groups of people seem to have similar stuff with each other - contrast with other Gong stylists, such as the Wang Zhuangfei branch in Shanghai.

[lazyboxer]

Hmm - wonder if Gong Baozhai and Liu Yunqiao met and trained together at all after moving to Taiwan?

Interesting how groups of people seem to have similar stuff with each other - contrast with other Gong stylists, such as the Wang Zhuangfei branch in Shanghai.

You're getting warmer, Edededed...why not ask He Jinghan for confirmation?

[Bob]

Please, let's not go down this road again. My own teacher, Tony Yang, was with Liu Yun Qiao from around 1972 to 1980 on a full time basis, day by day, and, according to him, there was no martial arts exchange between the two other than pleasantries of sorts. You can call Tony a liar, I guess, but that probably is not a great idea and that is what he says.

If you are in Taiwan, Tony is there attending the Guoshu Tournament in Tainan---ask him, or ask Damon Hwang or if you are in Canada, ask James Guo. If you are in California, go talk to Jason Tsou. Better yet, ask Adam Hsu---he is a straight shooter. Here is his explanation:

Tell Me About:


PENETRATING FOREST BAGUA


BaGua has certainly proliferated. First coming to light in the early 1800's it has spread like wildfire through the Chinese martial arts community. Derived from creator Tung Hai Chuan's original 18 students, most of them high level martial artists to begin with, it has now developed into over 150 families, styles and versions. Some are "generic", some are "interpretive". There's also been the effect arising from the fact that many BaGua teachers in the past were essentially Xing Yi experts with some BaGua training.

But most people agree that the two main streams of BaGua come from Tung's most active students Yin Fu ("thin Yin") and "Spectacles" Cheng Ting-Hua.

Yin Fu was by far the more active teacher. And many people claim to teach the Yin Fu system in different staves of completion. Truth to tell BaGua is such a transformational art that no one probably teaches the original system exactly as Master Yin Fu did.

Yin had the most students of the first generation of teachers. One of these was a general, Kung Bao Tien; himself a well-respected martial artist and a swords play expert. Among his students an outstanding and world-famous student was Liu Yun Chiao, the founder of Wu Tan organization in Taiwan and instructor of such luminaries as Adam Hsu (Hsu Chi), Su Yu Chang and Tony Yang (Yang Shu-Ton ).

The system handed down to Liu Yun Chiao was amazingly complete for pure BaGua training. It is known as Chuan Lin (Penetrate or "thread" the Forest) or, more recently, as Kung Style BaGua (after General Kung).

A partial curriculum of this form of BaGua includes:

BASIC LEG MOVEMENTS
Standing Twist Stance
Square Walking Circle
Walking

ARM TRAINING
Four Hands: Circle, Drill, Thrust and Penetrate
Four Hands 3 Levels

BASIC WALKING
Three Levels: High, Middle, Low
Inside and Outside Turning

BASIC CHI KUNG
Standing
Linear Walking with Bai Bu and Kou Bu

FOUR HAND LINEAR TRAINING
One step for each of the Three Levels

INTERMEDIATE CIRCLE WALKING
With Four Hands
With Coiling Arms

PARTNER PRACTICE
Stationary Four Hands
Linear Four Hands
Circling Four Hands
Three Changes Partner Style
Linked Coiling Arms

EIGHT INTERNAL PALMS
Standing
Walking

KAI MEN (LIANG YI) FORM
Four animals: Dragon, Bear, Snake, Swallow

POST TRAINING LEVEL ONE
Single Post

EIGHT CIRCLING PALM CHANGES

POST TRAINING LEVEL TWO
Two Posts

PARTNER KAI MEN

LINKED PALMS CONTINUAL CHANGE SET

POST TRAINING LEVEL THREE
3-9 Posts

ELK HORN KNIVES

JUDGE'S NEEDLES

There are a few notable aspects to this form of BaGua rarely seen elsewhere. First is the Square Walking. Second is the use of the Posts not to avoid but to touch for tactility training. Third is the unusual fact that there are two distinct "paths" for training. Since Yin Fu was a LuoHan master before beginning BaGua he developed two methods. One uses a series of three sets to teach people already versed in the martial arts. The other uses Internal Palms and completely other sets to create the "pure" BaGua student.

Truly a challenging but rewarding approach.

Adam Hsu's Bagua Tapes

http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxkungbagua.htm

If anyone one is interested in this line bagua [Wu Tan(g)] I think Jason Tsou offers a very informative and useful dvd.

DVD#21022 Bagua Chi Kung Double DVD
Secrets of the Dragon
Jason Tsou

This Double DVD gives an outstanding Chi Kung series specially adapted for Bagua Zhang students. Jason Tsou, another top teacher from the Liu Yun Chiao lineage, shows a rare example of Chuan Lin (Yin Fu) Bagua through the Gong Bao Tien branch. This Chi Kung incorporates five-element theory with the eight animals and the nine palaces. Each of the key movements are performed at three levels of complexity (San Tsai) with detailed instruction for breathing, posture and intent. This perfectly dovetails with the Internal Palms DVD from Adam Hsu, another Liu graduate.
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_baguayinfu.htm

I've got no beef with He Jing Han, Lonnie, Miro or any others in the line of Gong Bai Zhai. I've read both of He Jing Han's books and had his tapes since the early 1990s. I've seen the notes that my teacher, Tony Yang took in the 1970s, long before I had heard of Gong Bao Zhai or any practitioners of that line. Unforunately the differences between the schools will never be reconciled and at some point you either let sleeping dogs lie or simply repeat the same assertions of the past with each party simply repeating what they believe to be true.

It is obvious that after over 40 years that no ones' position has changed and the above described curriculum is pretty much what is taught publicly by a signficant portion of the Wu Tan(g) disciples.

The real simple solution is to view the schools and if you like one better than the other, then go for it. It's pointless to keep arguing over the legitimacy of Wu Tan(g) material when it has stood the test of time and it's obvious that He Jing Han and others have their own successful lines with multitudes of students world-wide.

However, I hope this doesn't go down that road of name calling again otherwise I would like to see this thread locked and relegated to the BTDT bin forever.

People will believe what they want to believe and this is starting to feel like a Lake Erie fishing trip---trolling for walleye out of season! LOL

[edededed]

Sorry - my intent wasn't to start a legitimacy war or anything... I do think that people subconsciously may influence each other when they are close by geographically, though. In Gong Baotian's style, we have quite a lot of differences between the lineages (Gong Baozhai, Wang Zhuangfei, Sun Ruwen, Liu Yunqiao), quite more than most other styles; Gong's styles are again very different from other Yin styles as well (which also differ a lot from each other). It seems, though, that the Gong Baozhai and Liu Yunqiao styles seem to have a similar flavor (and a few similar forms), which is interesting.

The comparison is also easier to facilitate being that both He Jinghan and Adam Hsu are pretty open about their material, having released quanpu, videos, etc. (Taiwan is good that way ).

Not saying that one taught the other in Taiwan, but rather that there may have been mutual subconscious influence (there are examples of this on the mainland).

[Dean]

SPJ or any others, can you identify this Taiwan player from Wu Tan? These are his clips of bagua leg and its 98% exactly like I learned it and I am curious as to who he is. Although its missing the middle part, its flavor is almost the way I learned it.

Thanks.

Part I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J26okiDv ... re=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOU8Rzf1 ... re=related



Part II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnIEWyLd ... re=channel

Where are the circles of Pa Kua?

[Bob]

Appreciation of differences, that is one of the ways I resolve these issues, which you find in just about every line of traditional Northern Chinese martial arts---probably I am a bit sensitive because of previous "discussions".

To extrapolate a bit on Dean's point [I understand ya!], the Forest Palm form done Jason Tsou is a good illustration of how we might take something like bagua leg and convert the form into a circular-like form. I call them quasi-linear [my term not my teacher or anyone in Wu Tan(g)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwQ0-JMXePc



The logic goes something like this [you can see both linear movements and then circle walking in the Forest Palm form]---we take bagua leg [xiao kai men is the most fundamental and easiest way to see such a conversion] or hard palm/tight hand and integrate it with some of the 8 lines from the 64 internal palm form---the 64 internal palm form is a dynamic play on the static 8 mother palm forms---we use the 8 corners/points of the bagua to provide the direction and changing points. Its the way I have been taught and it was the way my teacher, Tony Yang, was taught by Liu Yun Qiao. The forms can later be decomposed onto the circle with movement across the circle---I have seen this demonstrated but not really learned how to do it---my suspicion is this is how the "quasi-linear forms" are played through the posts. FWIW, this is how Liu taught Tony and others and I can't verify if Gong Bao Tian taught him this way---but it seems logical to assume that this was his source for the forms and post training. Also some of the post training I learned has less to do with forms and more to do with static post training and some single moving posture training.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/baguaposts.htm

The reason I post these pieces is not to argue with anyone but simply to provide information about the system we know and practice. This is not a claim of unique authenticity---