Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby qiphlow on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:08 pm

i watched about the first minute and a half of the clip. i can't speak to the quality of the xingyi, but the exercises i saw looked like they could have some value. they may have been hitting the shoulder as a replacement for hitting the face (seems like a beginner's class, and getting hit in the face by a training partner who has no control tends to discourage alot of beginners).
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:42 pm

qiphlow wrote:i watched about the first minute and a half of the clip. i can't speak to the quality of the xingyi, but the exercises i saw looked like they could have some value. they may have been hitting the shoulder as a replacement for hitting the face (seems like a beginner's class, and getting hit in the face by a training partner who has no control tends to discourage alot of beginners).


My problem with that exercise isn't the hitting the shoulder. Fr one they are using two hands to control one hand of the partner, who still has his other hand completely free. Then they are striking and leaving the striking hand extended and waiting for the other person to control it. Just seems like it would ingrain bad habits to me.
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby chud on Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:32 pm

qiphlow wrote: ...the exercises i saw looked like they could have some value.


Agreed, it's always good to see people drilling their exercises, and not just focusing on forms.
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby mixjourneyman on Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:42 pm

C.J.Wang wrote:
mixjourneyman wrote:This is "master" Bakari.
I think he learned from Nganga Tooloo something or other.
I won't say anything else about this man's xingyi :P


Given the way things have gone lately, it sounds like a good idea for you to take a 4th amendament on your opinions regarding this man's Xinyi. ;D ;)


The problem is that if you point out that the emperor has no clothes, most people won't believe you because they are infatuated with his status. :P
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby qiphlow on Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:53 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:
qiphlow wrote:i watched about the first minute and a half of the clip. i can't speak to the quality of the xingyi, but the exercises i saw looked like they could have some value. they may have been hitting the shoulder as a replacement for hitting the face (seems like a beginner's class, and getting hit in the face by a training partner who has no control tends to discourage alot of beginners).


My problem with that exercise isn't the hitting the shoulder. Fr one they are using two hands to control one hand of the partner, who still has his other hand completely free. Then they are striking and leaving the striking hand extended and waiting for the other person to control it. Just seems like it would ingrain bad habits to me.


well yes, it would ingrain bad habits if they kept the drill the same for years and years. but maybe they're taking a very simplistic approach to the movement and just trying to get the n00bs used to distance and a little contact.
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby roger hao on Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:55 pm

I recognize these drills as very similar to part of a seminar that Lou DeXie gave. This looks like it has been a while since
the first learning of it or it got handed along by people that improvised or really didn't have it. The way Luo taught it your head was going
back between your shoulderblades and the rip back down would knock you down. They are grabbing instead of sticking too so it has
been externalized.
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby JessOBrien on Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:53 pm

mix bro, no one I know has a problem with discussions of the old texts. I think anyone who comes here appreciates a new translation.

It's your interpretations that are the problem. You see the classics as proving your teacher does everything right, and that what he says is always correct. That's the problem.

You see, for many of us the world isn't so black and white. We who have visited scores of teachers and gone outside our comfort zones have seen the principles applied in many and diverse ways. We who thought everything was so clear and clean and obvious end up with a shade of gray. Perhaps things aren't as obvious as our teenage selves thought things were.

When you and Juan go on and on about how obviously wrong others are, that's annoying. Because we can see you are parroting your teacher word for word, rather than relying on your own experience.

It's cool, we all have done that at one time in our lives. We've all had inspiring teachers who we thought could do no wrong. But when I got out into the outside world, things weren't as obvious as they used to be. That's called real life where sometimes you don't have all the answers.

10 years down the road I think your crystal clear understanding of exactly how Xing Yi is supposed to look will be a bit different. The classics will be the same, but your life experience will be different.

No one disagrees that the classical songs from our forefathers are the standard. Exactly how to interpret them is the issue. And the more you see in real life, face to face, fist to face, the more you will see that there are many, many nuances to this martial art called xing yi.

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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby chrislomas on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:14 am

Mr O'Brien that was beautiful, I commend your communication skills as being far higher then my own. You said what I would have liked to say -bow- .
Last edited by chrislomas on Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby mixjourneyman on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:42 am

Actually Jess, I have studied with many teachers and have had lots of time to find out for myself what is good and bad.
How do you even know what my teacher says on this subject, since you have never talked to him.
I'm just not some automoton who thinks that everything anybody who is famous does is good.
Just because you have a big name doesn't mean your good.
But if you cut the root, the tree will try to fall on you ;)
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby chrislomas on Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:59 am

A tree trying to do anything is doubtful. Mix, could you list these XingYi teachers and how many years of experience you have/had under them (alongside frequency of training and 'grade' if the school chose to use one) for me, I think that would greatly add weight to your point. I just think a guy (and his sidekick) who is unsure how his teacher taught him to stand in Sant Ti should be careful when explaining the XY classics to people with decades more hard earned experience.

Of course when I was a teenager I was going to be a great socialist playwrite and show people how to live a better life through careful reasoning and the didactic medium of theatre so WTF do I know...
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby mixjourneyman on Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:58 am

First off, I'm not a teenager. Second here is a list of teachers I have learned from in various arts

Hai Yang 3 years consistant training xingyi bagua taiji
Peter Ralston about four years off an on training via camps and online lesson, cheng hsin arts
Steve Higgins two or three years training yang and chen taiji
Andrea Falk, training via seminars in xingyi and magui bagua about 4 years
Donna Oliver bagua private lessons for about six months bagua
Jiulong bagua organization about a year off an on
Others karate when I was a kid, taiji with various people.

So now since I never made a personal attack against any of you, could you please stop insinuating things against me.
I merely critiqued someones xingyi performance with classical principles in mind. You guys got offended and decided to attack me, but its ridiculous since in the end you will never talk to me about the principles, you will just lower yourselves to attacking my character.
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby cdobe on Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:57 am

James,
you didn't list your Wu style teacher ???

mixjourneyman wrote:So now since I never made a personal attack against any of you, could you please stop insinuating things against me.
I merely critiqued someones xingyi performance with classical principles in mind. You guys got offended and decided to attack me, but its ridiculous since in the end you will never talk to me about the principles, you will just lower yourselves to attacking my character.


I did not read anything from you about what is wrong with this man's Xingyi. What you wrote was this:

mixjourneyman wrote:This is "master" Bakari.
I think he learned from Nganga Tooloo something or other.
I won't say anything else about this man's xingyi

::)

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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby mixjourneyman on Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:51 am

cdobe wrote:James,
you didn't list your Wu style teacher ???

mixjourneyman wrote:So now since I never made a personal attack against any of you, could you please stop insinuating things against me.
I merely critiqued someones xingyi performance with classical principles in mind. You guys got offended and decided to attack me, but its ridiculous since in the end you will never talk to me about the principles, you will just lower yourselves to attacking my character.


I did not read anything from you about what is wrong with this man's Xingyi. What you wrote was this:

mixjourneyman wrote:This is "master" Bakari.
I think he learned from Nganga Tooloo something or other.
I won't say anything else about this man's xingyi

::)

CD


I thought that later in the thread I also talked about five element theory and why his xingyi has points that stick out. If I didn't, I meant to.
Oh yeah and my Wu style teacher was Douglas Collins. He studied with Eddie wu for fifteen years. I only studied with him for about two though, since I moved on to taiji that I prefer over what I learned there (though Doug is a great guy with awesome skills).
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby JessOBrien on Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:02 am

mixjourneyman wrote:I'm just not some automoton who thinks that everything anybody who is famous does is good.
Just because you have a big name doesn't mean your good.
But if you cut the root, the tree will try to fall on you ;)


Cool man, sounds like you've done a lot of hard work. Keep it up! I didn't mean to lecture you, but I do feel that sometimes you are quick to judge that which isn't similar to what you do. That's understandable, but at the same time I feel that the classics and standards of Xing Yi are much more open to interpretation. People who train hard, kick ass and do good Xing Yi may not all look like you expect them too.

I don't worship famous people myself. I don't think anyone here does that. But I do respect the people that I've met who were damn good but don't fit your definition of what Xing Yi is supposed to look like. Sometimes I get the impression that you think your standard is the same as what the classics teach, when in reality it's your teacher's interpretation. Like I said, Xing Yi is not black and white. As an internal martial art, what goes on under the surface is vastly more important than the outside, and the only true test is in combat.

I hope you'll make your critiques based on specifics that we can discuss rather than "That guy sucks". I like debating specific principles and ideas within the arts, and I have a lot to learn. But saying that master xyz sucks doesn't get us very far.

Anyways, I've enjoyed your posts over the years and your thoughts and experiences as you've been training. You post from the heart which is a good thing that we can all learn from. So keep at it man.

-Jess O
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Re: Hsing I XingYi Quan Combat Training Techniques

Postby kreese on Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:33 am

...its ridiculous since in the end you will never talk to me about the principles...


Bagua, various styles 5 years
xingyi, various styles 5 years
taiji various styles 5 years
cheng bagua under Hai Yang 3 years
Xue and Zhang style xingyi under Hai Yang 2.5 years
Chen taiji under Hai Yang 2 years.


Hai Yang 3 years consistant training xingyi bagua taiji
Peter Ralston about four years off an on training via camps and online lesson, cheng hsin arts
Steve Higgins two or three years training yang and chen taiji
Andrea Falk, training via seminars in xingyi and magui bagua about 4 years
Donna Oliver bagua private lessons for about six months bagua
Jiulong bagua organization about a year off an on
Others karate when I was a kid, taiji with various people.


Edited.
Last edited by kreese on Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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