the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Liu Yun Chiao's Mizong found on youtube. Enjoy!

the palm in frame makes me think someone filmed this in secret!

Thanks a billion for the find, Stray Dog Matthies. That is a a very good form, Mizong II.

Its amazing that these show up 16 years after his death. There is a lot more out there, I am sure. His deerhorn clips are very good too.

The only thing I don't get is how everything he does looks like baji---[tongue and cheek] LOL

Thanks for posting.

cool.

I am waiting for his Tai Tzu Chang Chuan to end up on Youtube.

The only video of him I've seen was very short, at an odd angle so really hard to see, and done REALLY slow. I practice (or rather I'm out of practice) that, and while I do it slowly, the clip of Master Liu doing it is at a crawl. Really interesting. I hope it ends up on there too.

I have a clip of a girl doing it in a parking lot. She moves very slow, like Taiji.

We are stil trying to figure out what that set is exaclty.

Generally sets named Tai Tzu are named in an honorary fashion to reflect that they descend from Sung era Shaolin Long Fist. I have yet to find a form called Tai tzu that is actually from Sung Tai tzu himself(although the Shaolin one is from his generals). Every time we find a set, if adds a whole new piece to the evolutionary puzzle though.

cool clip. reminds me a lot of He Jinghan's Bagua.

Royal Dragon wrote:I have a clip of a girl doing it in a parking lot. She moves very slow, like Taiji.

We are stil trying to figure out what that set is exaclty.

Generally sets named Tai Tzu are named in an honorary fashion to reflect that they descend from Sung era Shaolin Long Fist. I have yet to find a form called Tai tzu that is actually from Sung Tai tzu himself(although the Shaolin one is from his generals). Every time we find a set, if adds a whole new piece to the evolutionary puzzle though.

As I have probably stated before, speculation only, that I believe the Yang Lu Chan version of taijiquan, especially the slow tempo, was based on a blend of the tai zu chang quan that was practiced in the Chen Village and the additional Chen forms.

As James Guo points out on his website:

Long Fist (Changquan)

Grandmaster Liu's family have resided for generations in the Cang County, the so called "Martial Art Village". Liu's family had a Long Fist system that was passed down through generations. This system only has one routine, but contains over 300 movements. The movements of this routine are large, expansive and slow. Comparing the characteristics and the names of the movements in this Long Fist routine to the available records from the Chen Village in Wen County of Henan, it appears to be similar to the lost Long Fist routine of the Chen Village taijiquan. According to the legends, this routine was first composed by the founding emperor of the Song Dynasty. It became popular in the Ming Dynasty, and was included in the military training by General Qi JiGuang, who included such training in the "Quan Jing Jie Yiao" chapter of his book "Ji Xiao Xing Shu".

http://www.bajimen.com/index.php?page=other

I am convinced that Daoism and its practices were inherent in the Chinese culture, especially within that region and it was no big deal to incorporate them as part of the tai zu chang quan. Yang Lu Chan, having spent 18 years in the Village area, more than likely learned this and it is also known that the initial training phase of Chen's taijiquan is played slow, without fajing expression. After having seen the first 10 moves or so of the tai zu routine it seems reasonable to me that Yang Lu Chan, teaching publicly, would teach a level with no fajing expression and a possible blend of tai zu quan and the first routine of Chen's taiji or some modification of it.

Royal Dragon, I have heard rumor that there is a tape floating around in Taiwan that has GM Liu Yun Qiao performing the entire routine but it was done very late in his life and I am not sure he was able to do the one-legged squats which are a part of the routine.

Bob wrote:

Royal Dragon wrote:I have a clip of a girl doing it in a parking lot. She moves very slow, like Taiji.

We are stil trying to figure out what that set is exaclty.

Generally sets named Tai Tzu are named in an honorary fashion to reflect that they descend from Sung era Shaolin Long Fist. I have yet to find a form called Tai tzu that is actually from Sung Tai tzu himself(although the Shaolin one is from his generals). Every time we find a set, if adds a whole new piece to the evolutionary puzzle though.

As I have probably stated before, speculation only, that I believe the Yang Lu Chan version of taijiquan, especially the slow tempo, was based on a blend of the tai zu chang quan that was practiced in the Chen Village and the additional Chen forms.

As James Guo points out on his website:

Long Fist (Changquan)

Grandmaster Liu's family have resided for generations in the Cang County, the so called "Martial Art Village". Liu's family had a Long Fist system that was passed down through generations. This system only has one routine, but contains over 300 movements. The movements of this routine are large, expansive and slow. Comparing the characteristics and the names of the movements in this Long Fist routine to the available records from the Chen Village in Wen County of Henan, it appears to be similar to the lost Long Fist routine of the Chen Village taijiquan. According to the legends, this routine was first composed by the founding emperor of the Song Dynasty. It became popular in the Ming Dynasty, and was included in the military training by General Qi JiGuang, who included such training in the "Quan Jing Jie Yiao" chapter of his book "Ji Xiao Xing Shu".

http://www.bajimen.com/index.php?page=other

I am convinced that Daoism and its practices were inherent in the Chinese culture, especially within that region and it was no big deal to incorporate them as part of the tai zu chang quan. Yang Lu Chan, having spent 18 years in the Village area, more than likely learned this and it is also known that the initial training phase of Chen's taijiquan is played slow, without fajing expression. After having seen the first 10 moves or so of the tai zu routine it seems reasonable to me that Yang Lu Chan, teaching publicly, would teach a level with no fajing expression and a possible blend of tai zu quan and the first routine of Chen's taiji or some modification of it.

Royal Dragon, I have heard rumor that there is a tape floating around in Taiwan that has GM Liu Yun Qiao performing the entire routine but it was done very late in his life and I am not sure he was able to do the one-legged squats which are a part of the routine.

The 108 POSTURE Long Fist set is composed of over 300 movements, both the Chen TJQ version, the Hongdong Tong Bei version, and the Tai Zu Quan version.
I'm pretty sure that Liu's Tai Zu Long Fist set was 108 postures/300+ movements like these sets.

There are two different Chen TJQ 108 posture Long Fist sets that people know of.
There is the one that Chen village does now that is very much the same as Hongdong Tong Bei's 108 Long Fist set
AND
there is Chen Fake's 108 Long Fist set. Chen Fake's set is clearly composed of Song Dynasty postures found in styles from that time period (TZ Chang Quan, Chuojiao Fanzi, Mi Song, Hong Quan, etc).

What one should compare is Chen Fake's 108 with Liu's.

Here's the two different Chen 108s (actually there is another one entirely different from Shanhai and one from Shandong too):

The one that Chen village got from Hongdong tong Bei:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5xE_dwjGA

The one that Chen Fake taught:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjfw0GzwK2w

(Interesting thing is that Chen Fake's Yi Lu had MORE of the tai zu chang quan postures in it that were missing from present day Chen village yi lu, so why is that?)

I just watched (and converted to digital) my tape of the girl in the parking lot doing Liu's Tai Zu Quan.
Her postures and the set itself is much more like Chen Fake's 108 than it is like the Chen Village one, i can find all the postures she does in the Chen Fake form, and None in the Chen village 108 set.
She does the set in the LOW frame, like Zhao Bao low frame though, but it is essentially the same movements but in a different order as those in the Chen Fake 108 set.
So, that is very interesting to see.

Here is a performance of Mizong by Adam Hsu--I believe its a modification of Mizong I:

Sal:

My thinking is that GM Liu's Tai Zu chang quan would probably have this type of tempo and flavor. This is one of my favorite clips:

Bob wrote:Sal:

My thinking is that GM Liu's Tai Zu chang quan would probably have this type of tempo and flavor. This is one of my favorite clips:

Yes, the clip of the girl doing Liu's TZ was very much like this video, very much.
I think it is significant that this set is from Shantong.
Shantong Tai Zu Quan is very much like Mi Song, and it is very much like Shantong Cha Quan system.