THE LiuHeBaFa "Finger"

[Royal Dragon]

Mind leads the body, Body leads the limbs. One thing moves, everything moves, one thing stops, everything stops.

[C.J.Wang]

Mind leads the body, Body leads the limbs. One thing moves, everything moves, one thing stops, everything stops.

Sounds good in general.

But a good IMAist should be able to do all those things in reverse as well depending on usage.

Body can lead the mind; limbs can lead body; everything moves but one thing stays still; everything stops but one thing moves.

[kreese]

Truth. If you can do one thing, you should be able to the opposite. I hate to keep bringing up Russian systema on a Chinese MA board, esp. since I have not been trained in it, but they show that turning the hard and fast rules on their head can have great results as well as giving you more options. If you really love IMA, you will start to see that many other styles understand aspects of it much better than the 'in' crowd.

[jjy5016]

"while the vids have no mention of any finger, we point to where the intention is, and the "rest" would follow... er, hopefully...
推动转轮器.... 遍身皆弹力- "push move wheel/gear turning machine, whole body entirely spring force"*
i do not know master kam's student/audience; but i personally would hesitate using the term "spiral" in lhbf discussion"

We use the finger thing sometimes.

The first of the HK eagle claw students that went to study yiquan with small Han (hated by cats everywhere)experienced it. When he asked to become Han's student Han held out his finger and said "So you studied eagle claw? Show me what you learned". When the guy grabbed the finger he got thown across the room.

But Strange why would you hesitate using the term spiral in LHBF discussions?

John

[somatai]

very nice movement.....once mind leads body then i think it becomes quality of mind and also qualities available or hsin

[Strange]

grrrr....
john, just trust you to ask the really difficult stuff...mang...

beginning of the 5-word song:
心意本无法 / 有法也虚无 / 虚无得自然.... 得法可应变 / 有术方为奇....
xinyi actually has no fixed regulation
if there is any it is "empty"
possessing "empty" one can get "natural"...
having fixed regulations you can counter changes
having techniques, only then can it be called unendingly resourceful

in lhbf context,
xin yi - it is a subject that is not recorded in the Classics, taught only by mouth. therefore there is no regulation to speak of; its not formally recognised by scholars. so we do not speak of fixed regulations. buddhist say "i have the heart (xin) of everything; and also the regulation of everything"

fa (fixed regulation) - fixed pattern of thing (ie physics). these fixed patterns while have its ranges; but we are not to be limited by them. one of the verses 视不能为能 - "see the impossible as possible.

shu (techniques) - means bodily practice. make internal jing and qi can move body fluidly, must not have stoppages and hesitation.... your heart and hands must forget each other, the opponent cannot know what you will do... cannot be predicted.
so fa and shu is actually one , cannot be separated...

all the movement changes, the essence is not in the strokes but in the changes in the practitioners jing and shen.... so do not talk about theory too much... (meaning yours truly, hee)

above is master chen yiren's words, also there is no mention of spiral in the 5-word song. i think too much instruction make you lose "natural". wxz wrote in one of his books something like: heh my fist way actually have no strokes, but new student, like little monks asking the abbot, what is the method constantly. so i tell them some strokes to calm them like little monks. but there are really no strokes.....as long as my stroke can hit you, it is good stroke, do not ask me where this stroke come from.

friends, i say this not to belittle you or make lhbf sound more mysterious or something - if you think you fully understand... pls don't.
Chen XiYi, Li DongFeng, WuYiHui, Chen Yiren... are not typically the type you get in the middle of the bell curve...
i'm still a student, i am not sure i fully understand, so if the person doing the explaining is not confident...pls understand and bear with me; any lhbf seniors with more accurate understand is most welcome to correct my mistakes ... i think for our form of art, it is better to do it person to person, can touch, like feeling/reading pulse. no amount of explaining can replace that.

also in the vid mention by master kam..
a) 9 joint force - shoulder, elbow, wrist, pelvic(kua), knee, spine, waist, 2 legs

b) the stroke with one arm raised and other hand below elbow in demo - 顺水推舟 "pushing boat with the flow of water"

cheers, S.

[Drake]

I'm loath to relate anything on lhbf any more, but I'll give it a go.

<<also in the vid mention by master kam..
a) 9 joint force - shoulder, elbow, wrist, pelvic(kua), knee, spine, waist, 2 legs>>

Wrong, S. The 9-joints according to LHPF are: 1. neck/head, 2. Back/chest, 3. Shoulder, 4. Elbow, 5. Wrist, 6. Kua/Pelvis, 7. Hip, 8. Knee, 9. Ankle. There is a specific exercise for this unity, C.J., and after this is mastered you can do it in reverse as well, but that is a part of another foundational exercise. Without foundation there is no LHPF.

<<b) the stroke with one arm raised and other hand below elbow in demo - 顺水推舟 "pushing boat with the flow of water">>

Also known as a single palm change in bagua. Also known as pek chui in hsing-i. That particular stroke is as variable as the practitioner, and opponent.

[kreese]

If you don't want to talk about LHPF, Drake, there's always..uh..erotic photography.

[qiphlow]

grrrr....
john, just trust you to ask the really difficult stuff...mang...

beginning of the 5-word song:
心意本无法 / 有法也虚无 / 虚无得自然.... 得法可应变 / 有术方为奇....
xinyi actually has no fixed regulation
if there is any it is "empty"
possessing "empty" one can get "natural"...
having fixed regulations you can counter changes
having techniques, only then can it be called unendingly resourceful

in lhbf context,
xin yi - it is a subject that is not recorded in the Classics, taught only by mouth. therefore there is no regulation to speak of; its not formally recognised by scholars. so we do not speak of fixed regulations. buddhist say "i have the heart (xin) of everything; and also the regulation of everything"

fa (fixed regulation) - fixed pattern of thing (ie physics). these fixed patterns while have its ranges; but we are not to be limited by them. one of the verses 视不能为能 - "see the impossible as possible.

shu (techniques) - means bodily practice. make internal jing and qi can move body fluidly, must not have stoppages and hesitation.... your heart and hands must forget each other, the opponent cannot know what you will do... cannot be predicted.
so fa and shu is actually one , cannot be separated...

all the movement changes, the essence is not in the strokes but in the changes in the practitioners jing and shen.... so do not talk about theory too much... (meaning yours truly, hee)

above is master chen yiren's words, also there is no mention of spiral in the 5-word song. i think too much instruction make you lose "natural". wxz wrote in one of his books something like: heh my fist way actually have no strokes, but new student, like little monks asking the abbot, what is the method constantly. so i tell them some strokes to calm them like little monks. but there are really no strokes.....as long as my stroke can hit you, it is good stroke, do not ask me where this stroke come from.

friends, i say this not to belittle you or make lhbf sound more mysterious or something - if you think you fully understand... pls don't.
Chen XiYi, Li DongFeng, WuYiHui, Chen Yiren... are not typically the type you get in the middle of the bell curve...
i'm still a student, i am not sure i fully understand, so if the person doing the explaining is not confident...pls understand and bear with me; any lhbf seniors with more accurate understand is most welcome to correct my mistakes ... i think for our form of art, it is better to do it person to person, can touch, like feeling/reading pulse. no amount of explaining can replace that.

also in the vid mention by master kam..
a) 9 joint force - shoulder, elbow, wrist, pelvic(kua), knee, spine, waist, 2 legs

b) the stroke with one arm raised and other hand below elbow in demo - 顺水推舟 "pushing boat with the flow of water"

cheers, S.

very nice post.

[Drake]

If you don't want to talk about LHPF, Drake, there's always..uh..erotic photography.

Gitcher mind, outta da gutter, boy.






(my wife hasn't done anything for me to aggravate her with that lil display........... Yet)

[kreese]

We have coffee, tea, and Djarum menthol cigarettes here in the gutter, Drake. Mmmmm...

[Drake]

We have coffee, tea, and Djarum menthol cigarettes here in the gutter, Drake. Mmmmm...

Life is good inna gutter.......

[jjy5016]

We have coffee, tea, and Djarum menthol cigarettes here in the gutter, Drake. Mmmmm...

Life is good inna gutter.......

"Inna gutter davida baby...."


Strange even though there isn't a mention in of it in the Five Character Secret one can see spiralling in the form. Perhaps you call it something else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i_z7dbB ... re=related

In this short demo the guy starts showing it at abou 20 seconds into the video. When he starts turning his torso and the arms go up and forearms are rotating this is what I'm calling the use of spiralling. Perhaps it's "one of those things that are just transmitted via the oral tradition. (No social disease jokes please)

To echo Qiflow, very nice post.

John

[Royal Dragon]

Strange,
How much of the Long for are you doing in your clip, and how much is missing between where you stop, and Choi continues with the second half?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA

[Drake]

John,

The "spiraling" that you're referring to exists all throughout the long form even though it's not mentioned in the 5 C.S. It would have to be in there for any natural movements to occur. Don't you think?