Baji on ESPN

[JAB]

Jimmy (I assume),
What is Shingitai JJ? Never heard of it? How long have you been doing traditional JJ? Lots of Newaza?
If you have any clips of your guys' Shuai training I would love to see it, as the last time I was back there I never once saw anyone throw anyone else! Hopefully you all have come a long way with adding some into your curriculum! Good on you! May I ask where you all were training it?
Thanks
Jake

[Bob]

I've been with Tony Yang for over 20 years---no one has ever been trained from the ground up in bajiquan, absolutely no one. The closest one that fits the bill is my senior kungfu brother, James Finley, who has been with Master Yang for over 25 years and took it upon himself to train the xiao baji/da qiang training for 9 years, coming very close to daily practice even though he worked in construction during that time.

Being trained in purely in baji first requires the 8 stances and once the very basic fundamentals are done the requirement of 3 years of xiao baji, the da qiang, and properly timed pigua jiben gong and form is set in motion. 3 sets of xiao baji 3 times a day, holding the first two sets from xiao baji to a 3, 4 or 8 breath count while thinking to the structural points of the body and specialized breath training in the da qiang. 100 moving one punches per day. No one has or currently comes close to training this way.

Tony Yang does not train people; he teaches them how to train themselves based on a number of princples and indeed a lot of the influence comes baji and praying mantis. There has been no pure baji/pigua training ever done at the school. Even when we had baji classes publicly in 1997, the holding of xiao baji postures was never a part of the curriculum; however, it was taught and if postures were held in class it was to check the structural alignment so no injuries would occur.

My own teacher's xiao baji was only checked 9 times over a 3 year period after it was taught to him by Liu.

Perhaps I have painted the wrong picture---baji is a great system and the training is brutal---NOT UNIQUELY BRUTAl and NOT UNIQUELY GREAT.

You don't need baji to be a good or even great fighter.

As my Master says FEW, if any, really want to train purely in bajiquan/pigua zhang and when you do you really have to train yourself.

[kreese]

Bajitanglang - It makes me very happy to hear about what you are doing. I don't think there is anything wrong with combining complementary systems in order to round out your fighting package. I would imagine the whole point of the Wutan curriculum is to point towards the overall principles of CMA via different styles. Adding jujitsu just makes sense if your opponents are doing it as well.

Bob - I've always respected the traditional baji training as outlined by your teacher. I can only imagine what sort of transformation would take place (internally and externally) if one were to stick to the 3 year plan.

[Bob]

Jake:

Before Jimmy came, Jason Eddy trained those who wanted to go into the ring and that is where a great deal of the throwing was taught.

[Bajitanglang]

Jake, yes it is me,
You have never set foot into my school so i do not know when you speak of. If you mean the Akron School than you are right at that time there was none but that was over 5 years ago. To answer the Questions about JJ, I do not teach it i am lucky enough to have an inhouse rep from Shingitai
If you need more info on SHingitai look up John Saylor

And as for My Brothers post, Just because i do not train them exactly the way they did 100 years ago and because they do not hold poses (other than stance training or for checking for structure) does not mean i do not follow the training directives for baji that GM tells me are needed for good fighters. Regardless of whether you like me or not your public ignoring has pushed me to the point that i have to speak up. No matter however because i am not taking it personally. It is ok with me if you do not want to be friends, but i think you should come to my school and witness the class before you make generalized comments from which you have no basis. There is not only one way to train anything you of all people should KNow that you are the smartest among us.

I trained both Praying Mantis and Baji at the Same time From day one in the School and yes they had baji class twice a week. I came in as an advanced CMA practitioner. I also have a good ability to pay attention and i listen to my masters criticism and teaching. Nevertheless, THere is no need for me to try to prove in words just watch me play, i hide nothing from noone

I am sorry if you do not accept my students as Wutang fighters (your comment about sending fighters to Sheely was extremely underhanded) you have always been aware of my work and the fighters i have been training for over 5 years now for the Grandmaster as well as the belts they have won.

I am trying as hard as i can to be here for you but you just ignore my existence and that is fine. However i want you to notice that i have said nothing negative about you, i just wish you would have befriended me rather than take this path.

I am very sorry you feel so strongly against what i try to do for the Grandmaster. But i will not hold it against you, you are not the first to resist my hard work and you will not be the last

[Bajitanglang]

JAke i train like any other student when it comes to the JJ class My teaching status is only in what i know. The school i am a part of is a good idea actually
A smart freind of mine put together a nice big place brand new that is ready for all styles and then he went out and actively searched for teachers to represent the major styles of Asia. I was the Chinese choice. So i get the benefit of the other styles anytime i wish. However for the most part i have only played JJ and Aikido. Aikido has great things but it goes against my Aggressive Baji Mantis flavor. JJ fits right in nicely (although it is very hard on an old body lol)

[JAB]

Jimmy
I shall look Saylor up.
I hope that whole post was not aimed at me!?!?! I do not ignore you or anyone! I think it was aimed towards Bob though. Correct me if I am wrong.

No I have stepped foot in your school, so you are correct it has been a spell since I was out at Tony's school. I have yet to see any throwing from Wutan period. But I hope things have changed across the board in the 5 years or more of my absence!
Cheers,
Jake

[Bajitanglang]

The post was not aimed at you at all Jake, We feel alot alike when it comes to training. As i do with my big brother, i agree with him in alot of ways for example, i wish the world was the same as it was back in the early 1900's when it comes to the martial arts world,

but men are getting bigger faster stronger and much more intelligent (tactically not philosophically) and the approach has to change with the evolution of man. I hope my students evolve the study when they find the need in 5 generations from now. its like the old football argument how good would jim brown do on the modern gridiron if he was the same man as he was in his prime.

Nevertheless he (big brother) wants me to disappear, me and my students, i didnt make it all the way through History, criminal justice,and interogations as well as profiling in detective classes to come out not reading between the lines.

[Bob]

If you are speaking to me, James, you are way out of line and you are missing quite a few lines.

What you and Master Yang decide to do with fighters is between the two of you and I have nothing to do with it.

What do you mean that my comment about Scott Sheeley was underhanded?

Do you want me to go into detail over something I had nothing to do with Master Yang's relationship with Scott Sheely? You take that up with Logan and others, not me.

The baji training you refer to was not done 100 years ago in that manner---your own Master trained that way along with others. Andy Li was started in that manner.

I have my relationship with Master Yang and I know what my job is. I write about baji, Liu and Master Yang's material and keep it as undistorted as is possible; I don't hero worship any system or any art. I am a straight shooter when it comes to this role and if I make a mistake I will correct the mistake. I don't carry hidden agendas.

I have nothing to do with how you train fighters and what your goals and intentions are; that is between you and Master Yang and doesn't involve me or my writing regarding baji or for that matter any of the material unless he wishes to put it out in the public domain.

He runs the train schedule so just what are you getting at?

What is it that you want from me?

[Bajitanglang]

Out of line how i am just stating facts

early in this post you were asked (Bob - what are are you guys (meaning our family of Wutang) doing to put your bajiquan out there for people to see? I don't see how a fight-oriented public these days would scoff at a live demo of Da Powah of Bajiquan. You will always have those who drop at at the first hint of hard work, but there are plenty of young people working very hard at their respective fight games.) in your reply you completely forgot what work i have been with our team doing i am assuming becuase i do things a bit different, and replied without even mentioning the hard work my the team has been doing at my branch, but took the time to mention that "We even sent a couple of guys to Scott Sheeley in Colombus to help prep them for the ring---"

But ok you do not have to mention them or our work that didnt bug me at all that is why i did not say anything at first i let it go

but then when i politely answered the question above, with 100 percent honesty telling the individual what we have been up to, not looking to say anything or ruffle any tempers, just stating exactly what the Wutang fight team has adopted for several years as a fighter preparation system at my location totally within my rights as a younger disciple trying to further the system.
you felt it very important that you try to completely discredit my reply by telling the public that no-one is training from the ground up without even stepping foot in my school ever not even once.

That is WAY out of line

[JAB]

No offense to anyone involved (I love you all), but if Tony Yang (anyone in Wutang or anywhere for that matter) has not taught all his Baji to someone who has been with him for over 25 years then we can gleam one of two things from this:
- He does not know the whole system
and/or
- He is unwilling to share what he does know.

Either way I think it is BS! Not fair to the students who have put all the dedication, hard work, and effort into their training.
Just my 2 cents though!
Jake

[Bob]

Nothing written here discredits what you do because it has nothing to do with the fact that NO ONE has ever been trained from the ground up in the baji system that Master Yang teaches. That is as straight as it gets and there are no lines to read between.

Having said that, Jake, people are trained in baji and its foundation and what Tony teaches is straight-up and worth learning. By ground-up, I mean a complete exclusive focus on baji/pigua nothing more or nothing less. To use baji training in some aspect of the art of fighting or conditioning is not the same as being trained from the ground-up in a system.

If you are claiming that your fighters are being trained ground-up in the baji system, then you are wrong and indeed out of line, it's that simple.

Baji, its history, its principles, its training go beyond any one individual.

Beyond that, I have no concern with all the other aspects of this discussion.

[Bajitanglang]

You know the history of Baji as good as anyone, I know how fluent you are in the arts, In fact i prize you as being the most versed in the Taji and the History and applications of such not to mention several other styles and there execution over many hundreds of men that i know who are experts you have earned a place in the history of taiji and Baji, Bagua etc, my comment is not to you or your ability or a measure of your knowledge.
Nevertheless i never claimed to do things the same way that GGM Liu did nor do i wish to, we live in different times and i am sure he as a creator of one of the first houses in "China of true Mixed Martial arts, I.E. Baji Pigua, Bagua< Mizong, Xing yi , Tai Ji etc etc and then allowing Longfist by Gm Hsu, and the Mantis by GM Su" and of course allowing students to train with all kinds of different masters he above all would understand the importance of the current applicability of Wutang teaching above any other.

I am not here to try to make or teach or change history, I am only here to do my job as a disciple, bring Wutang to the next generation in its applicable and modern user friendly well deserved position and keep it real on the battlefield.

I am not satisfied with trips down memory lane or historical research, we have a place among modern hand to hand combat. Whether things are done exactly as 50 years ago or not matters little. We have experts like you to keep us straight with history and tradition. We as combatants need to focus on training. And other than school for the last decade all i have really focused on was my martial progression,
i train the whole day through and then i write and contemplate on tactics when i am resting. and i teach and test the results with men (the newest disciples) that have dedicated their lives to you and our family and took on all my brothers as their liege as part of an oath

There is no hidden agenda, and i am happy you see that this is bigger than any one person, Because i know no one can proliferate Wutang alone. Nor should they have to

[SPJ]

Just like to add some thoughts.

1. history does help us or gives us some perspectives.

a. Ba Ji practitioners all practice long spear or very good with the spear since Wu Zhong, the first recorded teacher.

but if you said you do not want to practice long spear, nobody will ask you to.

however, if you watch some da qiang comp, you would notice, the use of da qiang does require short outburst of whole body power from dan tian, and we have to be fast, too, other wise, da qiang is too heavy and too long to move about. let along to out manevuer your opponent.

b. breathing exercise, standing practice, they are boring, but that is how you may gain the ability to do outburst of whole body power over time. if you do not want to do them, again, nobody will ask you to.

c. Ying Jing Jing and jing gang ba shi were incorporated into the system, again with the same reasonings from above.

again, if you do not want to practice them, nobody will ask you to.

as pointed out, not all styles are befitting to you, or actually, every style does have some requirements to make things work the way that is focused and aimed for.

Ba Ji is not for everyone and not everyone likes Ba Ji or training required to be good at it. My 2 brothers just dun like it, no matter what.

The stepping is way too heavy. the moves are too rigid/stiff. --- (compared with other styles)

To each his or her own.

However, most people would know Ba Ji is extreme yang and extreme hard/kang.

d. That was why Pi Gua is good to be coupled with Ba Ji.

again, if you just want to practice ba ji and not pi gua, nobody will ask you, too.

----

[Bob]

SPJ, as always, thank you for the insightful comments.

James, I have no argument with you.