Low Light Techniques

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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby bruce on Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:48 am

Shenquan wrote:I think I see your point but still in my opinion there is a huge difference. I'll put it this way. A bagua fighter armed with a knife in 1885 had to fight in first person with no protection looking another folk in the eyes and knowing that if he did somthing wrong he might get cut, loose an eye or bleed to death

fist vs fist, knife vs knife or attack modern war machine vs modern war machine same same same ...

Shenquan wrote:notwithstanding that he also had to consider the fact that in front of him there was another human being so he had to deal with his own conscience while deciding if fight to kill or fight trying not to kill.

so are you to imply that the modern solder is not aware that at the push of a button he can kill or be killed.

Shenquan wrote:A pilot on a Black Shark is surely a highly skilled pilot (I don't really think that piloting those things is easy)

yep ...

Shenquan wrote:but he basically flies from a considerable distance from his target and by pushing a button he can kill an outstanding number of people with almost zero risk (notwithstanding that such bombings are frequently done during the night).
Does anyone really think it is the same?

you think there is "almost zero risk" i think that is a mistake. it it was the modern war machine vs a knife wielding bagua man i agree the modern would be at very little risk
:)
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby gryphonz on Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:53 pm

Weapons are created for killing, as are the martial arts. Martial arts, by their nature also strengthen the body. It's just a very nice side effect.

Shooting's an art, like playing the guitar. It's hard stuff. You gotta acquire the target, aim and shoot, use your body as a single unit to withstand the force of the recoil, control breathing rate, control your muscles, relax your eyes, relax, breathe out and shoot, while calculating the trajectory of the bullet, your height and wind, relative motion of the target, the caliber and amount of gunpowder in the round, as well as the characteristics of the weapon. Difficulty keeps going up as distance increases. If you consider bow and arrow a martial art, the gun is no more or no less a martial art. Miyamoto Musashi himself acknowledges the skill required to use a gun.
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby Shenquan on Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:30 am

so are you to imply that the modern solder is not aware that at the push of a button he can kill or be killed

Not exactly. Some years ago I was reading on a scientific local magazine about a research (think it was an American study but I'm not sure though) according to which there is a strong connection between physical and emotional distance when killing is concerned. I don't remember the very details but I do remember that the concept was that killing somebody from a very close range (especially if you're in front of the other person) is a huge mental stress (unless you're a psycho of course) but the more the person intending to kill gets further from his target, the more mental stress decreases with the two extremes being having to kill somebody in front of you and pressing a button from a distance of many kilometers.
Now I'm no scientist or psycologist whatsoever but I do believe this to be quite reasonable.

you think there is "almost zero risk" i think that is a mistake. it it was the modern war machine vs a knife wielding bagua man i agree the modern would be at very little risk

If bombing a target (often civilian or located in the middle of a civilian zone) at night time with one of those helicopters armed with the latest and up-to-date weaponry is a high risk situation then I guess driving a car might be considered awfully risky

Shooting's an art, like playing the guitar. It's hard stuff. You gotta acquire the target, aim and shoot, use your body as a single unit to withstand the force of the recoil, control breathing rate, control your muscles, relax your eyes, relax, breathe out and shoot

This sounds very interesting. I'm not saying that shooting is easy, I'm just perplexed regarding the connection between Chinese traditional MAs and shooting. Like how much body control is required to be a fine shooter? Can the training done by a shooter be compared to that carries out by a martial artist in terms of body mechanics?
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby gryphonz on Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:01 am

As it relates to traditional MA, shooting has the same requirement as archery, relaxed focus. Without, of course the strength requirement to draw a heavy bow.
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby bruce on Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:15 am

Shenquan wrote:
so are you to imply that the modern solder is not aware that at the push of a button he can kill or be killed

Not exactly. Some years ago I was reading on a scientific local magazine about a research (think it was an American study but I'm not sure though) according to which there is a strong connection between physical and emotional distance when killing is concerned. I don't remember the very details but I do remember that the concept was that killing somebody from a very close range (especially if you're in front of the other person) is a huge mental stress (unless you're a psycho of course) but the more the person intending to kill gets further from his target, the more mental stress decreases with the two extremes being having to kill somebody in front of you and pressing a button from a distance of many kilometers.
Now I'm no scientist or psycologist whatsoever but I do believe this to be quite reasonable.


the above i would agree with. it may be emotionally easier to make the kill if you are at some distance and are not forced to actually feel and look into the eyes of the person as you kill them.

good points ...
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby Ian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:55 am

Shenquan wrote:True, I have absolutely no experience whatsoever with guns so, if you would like to explain what kind of body ability (apart from shooting with more accuracy) can be developed using a gun, I'll be more than happy to read on.


Without knowing your experience and level, and without you knowing mine, I think it'd be best if I just pointed you to some resources on the topic. These guys say it better than me anyway.

http://www.strategosintl.com/pdfs/Force ... illing.pdf
http://www.strategosintl.com/pdfs/The-C ... eality.pdf
http://www.strategosintl.com/pdfs/OODA.pdf



Last edited by Ian on Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby strawdog on Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:59 pm

This sounds very interesting. I'm not saying that shooting is easy, I'm just perplexed regarding the connection between Chinese traditional MAs and shooting. Like how much body control is required to be a fine shooter? Can the training done by a shooter be compared to that carries out by a martial artist in terms of body mechanics?


In my experience shooting at the levels shown in the clips requires more skill and development in mind and body than so called martial artist have.
Last edited by strawdog on Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby Shenquan on Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:29 am

Wow, lots of stuff to read, as soon as I have some extra time I'll be giving it a look, thanks for the links anyways
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby Ma Long on Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:56 pm

I'd say dogfighter pilots have more in common with traditional MA, than those trained in urban warfare (i.e. those who run around with guns). Although, if they ever combined parkour with gun fighting then I might change my mind :)
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Re: Low Light Techniques

Postby strawdog on Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:09 pm

Please don't change your mind, EVER! :-\
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