a training brother in push hands comp..

[ashe]

this is a training brother of mine from texas named doyle beuke, winning the gold at last years taiji legacy tournament. not sure what division he was in.

[Chris Fleming]

Why all the grabbing and shoving in TAIJI push hands competitions?

[ashe]

Why all the grabbing and shoving in TAIJI push hands competitions?

have you seen how they roll in chen jia guo?

[qiphlow]

Why all the grabbing and shoving in TAIJI push hands competitions?

i've been asking that same question for YEARS now.

[ashe]

what's wrong with grabbing?

[Andy_S]

In Chenjiagou, they don't do fixed step PH, AFAIK....and the aim is to put the other chap down or out, rather than push or pull him a few inches. Also, there is no grabbing with a tight fist; there is, however, grabbing (if that is the right word) with a loose, open hand, often using the tricep above the elbow as the lever point.

[AllanF]

Fixed step isn't something i am used to or interested in really, as it is to unrealistic for my taste (ie you concentrate on making someone take a step and forget the real purpose of tui shou)

I personally have no problem with grappling, tui shou is to develop ting jin in order to step up a move and finish. Grappling and qin na also have to use ting jin so for me this is how tui shou should be practiced. As for grabbing, it shouldn't be a problem if someone grabs you it instantly gives you something to work with.

One thing though, how many judges does it need to judge 2 guys in a FIXED step push hands?

[Dmitri]

Fixed-step work is an awesome training drill -- no more, no less.

What continues to amaze me is how horrible the judging is. Look (as just one of many examples there) at 0:35 - 0:50 part -- the guy is flying around like a butterfly and it takes the judge 15 long seconds to say, "stop, I've got white 'off-balance'", whereas the guy has been clearly off-balance for at least 5 other times during that exchange...

This is one of the main reasons why PH competition is a bad idea, in general, -- given the rules and the judging levels...

Congrats to your friend Ashe, although that looked like he didn't have to work too hard at all... It's almost embarrassing to see that level of performance from the other guy (who apparently got silver?) And who BTW doesn't look like a taiji guy at all, which, if that's the case, is even more embarrassing, that someone with good general sensitivity and "shoving skills" (but little apparent evidence of IMA jin) would get as high as silver at a tjq competition.

[ashe]

What continues to amaze me is how horrible the judging is. Look (as just one of many examples there) at 0:35 - 0:50 part -- the guy is flying around like a butterfly and it takes the judge 15 long seconds to say, "stop, I've got white 'off-balance'", whereas the guy has been clearly off-balance for at least 5 other times during that exchange...

i don't know what the rules are actually. anybody here competed at the legacy before?

I've only been the once, and i only did san da.

[qiphlow]

generally for fixed step a point is awarded to you if your opponent is unbalanced by you (or unbalances himself) while you remain in balance, and some contests will award more points for causing your opponent to fall. but there is often great disparity between the rules as written and the rules that get made up by the judges on the fly.

[Repulsive Monkey]

It looks good in places but my biggest criticism is wht on earth is no one using their waists in it. I didn't see one person move their waist even in the first pre-circling. There was some very good ane ncouraging rooting but no real use of the wasit.

[ashe]

It looks good in places but my biggest criticism is wht on earth is no one using their waists in it. I didn't see one person move their waist even in the first pre-circling. There was some very good ane ncouraging rooting but no real use of the wasit.

i think doyle had only been training about a year maybe when he did this competition, i don't know what the other guys excuse was.

[bailewen]

Don't know which one was your "brother" but at 35 - 37 seconds, guy on right missed an opportunity to finger/wrist lock the guy on the lefts arm. The lock is %100 set up for nearly 3 full seconds. Guy on right even has his hand under the other guys elbow. All he has to do is pull the elbow into himself and lean forward into the palm that is on his chest.

Maybe that would have been illegal. I think even if it was, you could be sneaky and use the lock just for a moment and then transition into "lu-ing" the guy back. It is an excellent form of lead arm control.

[Formosa Neijia]

Don't know which one was your "brother" but at 35 - 37 seconds, guy on right missed an opportunity to finger/wrist lock the guy on the lefts arm. The lock is %100 set up for nearly 3 full seconds. Guy on right even has his hand under the other guys elbow. All he has to do is pull the elbow into himself and lean forward into the palm that is on his chest.

Maybe that would have been illegal. I think even if it was, you could be sneaky and use the lock just for a moment and then transition into "lu-ing" the guy back. It is an excellent form of lead arm control.

Qinna is illegal. And this didn't look like fixed step to me. They're clearly moving but it doesn't look like moving step either. Must be the older one-step. I didn't think they had that any more.

[bailewen]

I wonder at what point they would call the foul then...

You can still play the angle on the chest so that the more he pushes, the more he hurts. You could probably get away with pulling his elbow into you because from the grip he had on him, there would be no visible difference. You would just need to make sure and leave enough wiggle room for him to escape and then take advantage of the panic moment that happens when you feel a lock setting in. Basically, I was seeing a lot of opportunities to apply "open door" qin na all over that clip. You let them into the trap, just don't close the door behind them.

One of the things Shifu sometimes talked to me about was how to apply certain elements of qin-na in an enviroment where the whole thing wouldn't work or wasn't allowed. Like you can apply certain wrist locks...to a degree...through gloves. You can't "lock" it in but you can cause them to strain their wrist and you can do it in many sneaky ways that are not really visible form theoutside.

Probably shouldn't be talking about this publiclly. . . .