a training brother in push hands comp..

[ashe]

the guy on the left is my training brother. i don't think the guy on the right could finish the lu because he was struggling for his own balance. he probably got into position for the lock and then had to hold on just to keep himself in place.

i think they're allow one step forward or back, but are not allowed to switch their stance in doing so.

[bailewen]

Maybe.

He was clearly off balance but I tend to think he just didn't know how to apply that lock. I've not seen more than one or two people in my life so far who could or who just knew about it. I've certainly never seen it on youtube, not yet anyways. Good show from your brother in any case. I can see that he was firmer on the ground. Much better root than his opponent.

If we ever do get to meet I'll have to try and show what I mean. I'd love it if someone was able to produce a video of the kind of lock I am talking about. So far I've just not seen it outside of my own Shifu. Seen a couple similar ideas from some FMA guys but not in a "live" situation. I'm really not talking about the wrist lock where you pin the guys hand to your chest and bend it around. It's almost more of a finger lock because it's based more on pushing all 4 fingers back towards the pushers own elbow. It's also a real good example of pursuing loss. The thing doesn't even work right unless you DO get uprooted. I think of it as "swallowing".

[ashe]

If we ever do get to meet I'll have to try and show what I mean.

we need to organize a big to do in s.f. next year and have everyone who can make it come. we should do like, the first annual eF gathering, and fly felipe up from the DR.

[GrahamB]

If we ever do get to meet I'll have to try and show what I mean.

we need to organize a big to do in s.f. next year and have everyone who can make it come. we should do like, the first annual eF gathering, and fly felipe up from the DR.

Make it Jan 3rd 2009 and I'm in!

[bruce]

If we ever do get to meet I'll have to try and show what I mean.

we need to organize a big to do in s.f. next year and have everyone who can make it come. we should do like, the first annual eF gathering, and fly felipe up from the DR.

even better we should all go to the dr and enjoy the beach!

[Formosa Neijia]

Maybe.

He was clearly off balance but I tend to think he just didn't know how to apply that lock. I've not seen more than one or two people in my life so far who could or who just knew about it. I've certainly never seen it on youtube, not yet anyways. Good show from your brother in any case. I can see that he was firmer on the ground. Much better root than his opponent.

If we ever do get to meet I'll have to try and show what I mean. I'd love it if someone was able to produce a video of the kind of lock I am talking about. So far I've just not seen it outside of my own Shifu. Seen a couple similar ideas from some FMA guys but not in a "live" situation. I'm really not talking about the wrist lock where you pin the guys hand to your chest and bend it around. It's almost more of a finger lock because it's based more on pushing all 4 fingers back towards the pushers own elbow. It's also a real good example of pursuing loss. The thing doesn't even work right unless you DO get uprooted. I think of it as "swallowing".

Omar,
People don't even train locks for comps like this because they are clearly illegal. Using them WILL get you disqualified. It would be stupid to train something for the tourney that would get you disqualified.

Dave C.

[ashe]

Omar,
People don't even train locks for comps like this because they are clearly illegal. Using them WILL get you disqualified. It would be stupid to train something for the tourney that would get you disqualified.

Dave C.

which to me is silly. it's like trying to do JJ without being able to apply any submissions. i think the focus of competitive push hands should shift toward standing submissions.

[bailewen]

The thing is, it's not even necessary to do the submissions. If folding and plucking is done right, it creates a dynamic that allows you to push them very easily even without the lock. Most of the locks, especially the one I was commenting on when I jumped on the thread, actually require the other person to push. No push, no lock. So it's a powerful defensive tool. I have found the sensed danger more useful than the reality.

But mainly, more like what you just said Ashe. Competitive push hands with no locking allowed is like a grappling competition with no submissions allowed. What's the point?

My answer to the perennial question, "What is push hands for?" is this. It is for developing the skills and techniques specific to Taijiquan. Ultimately it is a sparring medium with a ruleset tha encourages the stuff that you are supposed to be developing with your art. That includes the 8 jin, the 5 steps and the entire tactical repetoire of the style. Muay Thai has a ruleset that encourages MT techniques. Jujitsu has a ruleset to encourage JJ techniques. Boxing, the same.

Freestyle push hands is barely different from "regular" sparring. I think that the freestyle pushing I do with Shifu is what people around here have been calling "lan cai hua". Just about the only difference between free sparring and freestyle pushing is the requirement to maintain contact at all times. Shifu includes punching, kicking, sweeps, throws and jointlocks. (ti da shuai na) It's because of this kind of regular progression from fixed step single hand push all the way to complete freestyle that I can spar with non-taiji people and still occasionally apply text book techniques. Last week I sparred a Bando guy. I threw him 2 times. Once with Parting Horses Mane, once with High Pat Horse and once with Pouncing Tiger (hu pu - same as the Xing Yi move of the same name).

The folding/locking energy I am trying in vain to describe is an essential defense against palm strikes and/or grabs and fixed step is a great place to develop it. No need to actually sink the lock in. Just present the energy.

Again, great job in the contest. The Yiliquan man clearly had the stronger root and was quicker to get underneath the other guy. I am more interested in critiquing the broader context. I also maintain that this energy can be incorporated into even this very restricted ruleset. I don't believe it's the rules that keep it out. I believe it's the awareness. It took me 4 or 5 years before I could do what I am describing with any consistency. I have demoed it on experienced martial artists and the vast majority have never seen anything like it. When I met with Troy and Fubo and a couple others of you a year or so ago, I could just barely demo it. I could only apply it to a push against my chest and not in a freestyle way. In the past year or so I have managed to expand my range a fair bit. It can absolutely be incorporated even into the restrictive ruleset of fixed step competitive push.

[Bhassler]

I threw him 2 times. Once with Parting Horses Mane, once with High Pat Horse and once with Pouncing Tiger

Good thing you decided to become a disciple in martial arts and not accounting. Then again, with that kind of number manipulation you might have a place in the mortgage industry....

[bailewen]

lol...

Yeah. Having trouble counting past 2.

1.....2.....many....

[ashe]

I threw him 2 times. Once with Parting Horses Mane, once with High Pat Horse and once with Pouncing Tiger

Good thing you decided to become a disciple in martial arts and not accounting. Then again, with that kind of number manipulation you might have a place in the mortgage industry....

nyuck nyuck nyuck!

[kreese]

I learned the palm lock from Yang Yang, a Chen Taijiquan teacher. It is truly unexpected when someone is pushing on your chest. He could also make my wrists hurt when I tried to push on his arms. Just a slight twist (silk reeling) at the right angle and your own push is defeated. Some of my training brothers could do this accidentally, actually. I always thought this was one of the coolest applications of body movement for self-defense. Yang Yang once said something to the effect that "every part of your body can bite your opponent as soon as he touches you." I thought that was very cool.

[sdf]

I like Chenjiahou style push hands