Combat Taiji Training Methods and Chen Challenge

[Andy_S]

Mario Napoli's Taiji - including PH, application, sansau and Indian-style body conditioning.

For those of you unfamiliar with him, Napoli, a CMC Taiji, Judo and Yoga chap, challenged the Chens on their home turg (Chenjiagou) in their preferred fighting style (PH) and won against their top boys (Wang Xian's sons) in, I think 2000. Clip here:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VNXnxCpjUNM

Indian-style wrestling body conditioning:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pUIft2mWXKg

Sansau training (they have adopted boxing's bob and weave - from a Taiji stance)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pUIft2mWXKg

Thanks to Tom for posting the original link on the 'MYL Fast Form' thread (where many members may not have seen it).

[Bhassler]

This is the correct link for the Hindu exercises:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p0NLilpx1l4&feature=user

I'm not a huge fan of Napoli's stuff, as I think stylisticly it's overly specialized to competitive push hands formats for my taste. It worked well in the village because he was stronger than everybody else. Good Mongolian wrestlers would laugh at him. I don't have an issue with supplemental strength training, if that's what you enjoy, but I think the boxing drills are unnecessary. I can say with a high degree of confidence that if you practice your taiji shenfa correctly and get thrown in the dirt periodically that punching one another is unnecessary for impact conditioning.

[ashe]

i think you wanted this one as the second link

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p0NLilpx1l4

i'd be curious to hear him explain his methods and how he sees all the pieces fitting together.

[Doc Stier]

The so-called Push Hands demonstrated in the posted clips does not represent a high level of skill in any style of Tai-Chi Chuan, IMO. To the contrary, the clips show the kind of quasi-wrestling style of Push Hands typically seen in every weight category of competition at virtually every Chinese martial art tournament anywhere today.

As a long time Judge at such events,I can easily say that it is very rare for any competitor to show skillful execution of authentic, traditional Tai-Chi Chuan neutralization and countermeasure techniques. Instead, these matches generally involve only the application of brute strength and aggressive tactics, which usually results in the larger overcoming the smaller, the stronger overpowering the weaker, and the more aggressive attacker defeating the more passive defender in every weight class. These are not trained skills, but are natural mental and physical attributes which ultimately fail in the presence of real, high level Tai-Chi Chuan skills.

I personally became so disgusted with the quality of skills normally demonstrated by most competitors at these events that I finally refused to officiate push hand events at any tournament long ago. It is a waste of time to judge who among the best of the worst should be awarded a medal!

As a footnote to my sentiments, at an International Chinese Martial Arts Competition back in the late 1980's, I sat with Master T.T.Liang in the front row of chairs facing the push hands competion ring and watched the matches at hand, discussing what we saw before us. After about an hour, Master Liang suddenly reached for his walking cane and said to me "whenever blood is drawn in a match, as we saw today, this is not good tui-shou (push hands)." He then rose from his chair and returned to his hotel room in disgust. Nuff said!

Doc

[Formosa Neijia]

As a long time Judge at such events,I can easily say that it is very rare for any competitor to show skillful execution of authentic, traditional Tai-Chi Chuan neutralization and countermeasure techniques. Instead, these matches generally invlove only the application of brute strength ...

And when no one attacks, there's no opportunity to show this supposedly wonderful, strictly passive and defensive art that is fit only for old people. No attacks = no neutralization + no countermeasures.

Attacks and aggressively challenging your opponent's weaknesses must be a part of any martial art or it doesn't live up to the name -- TaijiQUAN included.

Great clips. Bravo to Mario.Especially liked the conditioning.

Dave C.

[Andy_S]

Doc:

SNIP
As a long time Judge at such events,I can easily say that it is very rare for any competitor to show skillful execution of authentic, traditional Tai-Chi Chuan neutralization and countermeasure techniques. Instead, these matches generally invlove only the application of brute strength and aggressive tactics, which usually results in the larger overcoming the smaller, the stronger overpowering the weaker, and the more aggressive attacker defeating the more passive defender in every weight class. These are not trained skills, but are natural mental and physical attributes which ultimately fail in the presence of real, high level Tai-Chi Chuan skills.
SNIP

I have some sympathy with your POV, but it begs the question: Why are, in your opinion, Taiji students unable to do "authentic, traditional Taiji" in virtually any kind of competitive format (be it PH, Sanda, NHB, etc)? Also, to say that the top guys in the village are unrepresentitive of a decent level of Taiji skill seems presumptuous. Moreover, if you look at Mario's clips, he shows "traditional" PH with neutralizing, unbalancing, etc, but in the heat of combat, that kind of subtlety did not manifest itself.

Is the fault with the art, with the teachers, or what? Are your students able to manifest recognizable Taiji skills in competitive situations? If so, what have you got that everyone else has not?

BTW, please DONT anyone tell me "Taiji is not competitve." Taiji was originally a battlefield MA, and a number of the old masters killed in duel and in battle.

Things do not get any more competitive than that.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
It worked well in the village because he was stronger than everybody else. Good Mongolian wrestlers would laugh at him.
SNIP

Hmmmm, would "good Mongolian wrestlers" laugh at all other Chen Taiji practitioners - or just poor simps like Mario and the Chen Village PH champs?

I ask this because while competitive PH does indeed, have a good number of restrictions/weaknesses as a fighting format, it is (AFAIK) the main fighting format used in the village today. Moreover, many other Chen Taiji schools (and indeed, Taiji schools in general) seem to lack even this - concentrating largely on "traditional" PH and some cooperative application work.

In what format, and what skills would you suggest ChenTaiji people train and gain the kind of combative abilities that will fortify them against being giggled at by passing Mongolians?

[Doc Stier]

I have some sympathy with your POV, but it begs the question: Why are, in your opinion, Taiji students unable to do "authentic, traditional Taiji" in virtually any kind of competitive format (be it PH, Sanda, NHB, etc)?

Is the fault with the art, with the teachers, or what?

I believe that the answer to your question is really quite simple. Apparently, most modern era Tai-Chi Chuan practitioners of virtually every major style only learn and practice the external elements of the art....i.e. form sets, prearranged push hand patterns, and other physical practices, but they don't seem to internalize the concepts and principles upon which such practices were founded into their deeper subconscious mind in any way that would allow the core concepts and principles to viably manifest themselves as automatic reactions and spontaneous responses under the stress of live combat or tournament competition.

The fault isn't in the external physical training or in the specific style that is practiced, because most practitioners are clearly capable of authentic form set performances and of adequate performances of prearranged partner drills....no problem. Thus, the fault lies in the absence of proper, effective mental programming and training, IMO, which is the real domain of any authentic 'internal art'.

As a result, when the pressure of performing workable applications is felt in the presence of a live opponent, the majority of practitioners simply fall back on their natural physical attributes and previous external experiences with fighting which they depended on prior to learning any kind of Tai-Chi Chuan.

Doc

[CaliG]

The more I do push hands the more I'm convinced that playing competition style push hands where the goal is to win builds up bad habits that aren't very useful.

Push hands is basically taiji for two, where the goal is to develop qingli, tingjing, nian and shenfa.

Of course there are other exercises for dealing with resistance but that's different from I want to win at all costs. If you want to see if your hard energy is truly harder than someone's else's then you'd be better off wrestling because at least win or lose it is a real, not an attack on someone who is not expecting it and holding back because of the rules.

[Bhassler]

SNIP
It worked well in the village because he was stronger than everybody else. Good Mongolian wrestlers would laugh at him.
SNIP

Hmmmm, would "good Mongolian wrestlers" laugh at all other Chen Taiji practitioners - or just poor simps like Mario and the Chen Village PH champs?

[SNIP]

In what format, and what skills would you suggest ChenTaiji people train and gain the kind of combative abilities that will fortify them against being giggled at by passing Mongolians?

I should qualify by saying that I don't know the state of Mongolian wrestling in the world today. The old school guys that stood in the saddle for 12 hours a day and wrestled horses to the ground would laugh at pretty much anyone who relied upon lifting, pulling, pushing, or otherwise manhandling them by main strength. Combining sound chin-na and powerful striking with shuai could be a different story, though. In that vein, I would echo some of the sentiments that have already been posted, that competitive push hands as it is practiced today is sorely lacking in key aspects of the art.

I actually think this thread dovetails nicely with the one on Ashe's friend in push hands competition, which has some nice commentary by Omar. I guess it just comes down to an individual choice as to whether one believes that the skills necessary for competition are central to one's practice, ancillary, or somewhere in between. I would also agree with Doc that what differentiates taiji from other arts moreso than any other single attribute is mindset. Most good CMA shares an emphasis on whole body power, intelligent use of force, etc., but the particulars of and extent to which taiji asks the practitioner to alter their worldview and their relationship to conflict has been in my experience the most unique aspect of the art.

[AllanF]

Competition Phs is very restricive but it is, at the moment one of the few way to test yourself. There are of course other ways for example visiting other teacher's groups and doing PHs with them. But of course this can also lead to problems, which rule set are you playing to etc.

At the moment we get people preiodically coming to our patch to push with us and more often or not you can tell as soon as you touch what rules they want to play.

The one thing i have against competitive Phs is as a learning tool it isn't so good (from my perspective). EG, there is a guy (Mr Yu) in my group who is always out to "win". He is not happy if he does not throw people to the ground. And yesterday was no exception, we had another guy come to our patch to practice and as soon as they touch hands Mr Yu goes straight for the kill, fine if you both know that is going to happen but otherwise it is a bit of a cheap shot. To attack an opponet's weak point is of course fine but if the opponent knows that this is the game you wish to play then such an action is doesn't comply with the taiji principles. Yesterday the other guy was thrown around like a rag doll but when it came to me pushing with him i was aware of the game and so his attcks were ineffective. Dispite me giving him 20kg and 5 inches. Unfortunately though i could stop him throwing me, i know that i was using brute strength at time and i could also feel him doing the same espessially when his first attempt failed. So from my point of view though it was a good work out and i have a healthy set of bruses on my arms from where he gripped me as a practice and learning tool it is not much use.

On the other hand i also pushed with the other guy that came to the park again but in stark contrast as it was on a more friendly level we both could work on things such as timing, alinement, efficent use of power (as opponsed to the brute strength tussle that is quite tiring). He noticed a couple of things i did wrong. So in terms of practice the second method was by far and away more productive for me.

I think the problem lies in the fact that as soon as you say the word competition it means someone must win and someone must loose. Most of the time our egos don't like to loose so we continue to battle to win. At the beginning of my PH with Mr Yu i didn't want to loose then as my arms got tired i didn't care it was then that i found it easier to neturalise his attacks though i still can not throw him or counter effectivly. In the second PHs practice we did there was no win no loose just do and it was by far and away better i was even able to throw him without thinking, he grabbed my arm and the next thing he was flying threw the air. Still not sure how i did that...however...taiji is a long road.

[CaliG]

Watching this video and the one with Ashe's friend I'm reminded why learning throws and takedowns is an important part of TJQ.

Because if you're going to the play the game that you see on the other thread any wrestler/judoka/SC guy is going to throw you.

The last time I had someone go into competition mode of me he insisted on staying front weighted, strong and sped things up very fast. I don't mind competition mode so much but when they decide to go extremely fast without moving the feet then I think we'd be better off playing sanda because to me calling an extremely fast shoving match push hands is like calling a slap fest fighting.

I then asked him if he wanted to play sanda so we could move our feet. He said no. So I basically got bored and I politely started using arm drags and foot sweeps on him. I figured I may as well get something out of it. Needless to say once I started doing that he couldn't play his game anymore.

[Jack Burton]

I personally became so disgusted with the quality of skills normally demonstrated by most competitors at these events that I finally refused to officiate push hand events at any tournament long ago. It is a waste of time to judge who among the best of the worst should be awarded a medal!
Doc

Brilliantly sums my attitude to these competitions

[ppscat]

The fault isn't in the external physical training or in the specific style that is practiced, because most practitioners are clearly capable of authentic form set performances and of adequate performances of prearranged partner drills....no problem. Thus, the fault lies in the absence of proper, effective mental programming and training, IMO, which is the real domain of any authentic 'internal art'.

Great statement! Good to here it from Doc Stier, who though promotes his secret Old Yang BanHou Long Form, admits that the mental aspect is what makes the difference.

[Pat]

when two guys grab a hold of each other, it always turns into wrestling.

ps- for the newer guys who don't know Doc, please don't take him for a non-fighting old hippie. any old Marine from Viet Nam has my respect.