Combat Taiji Training Methods and Chen Challenge

[Bob Mnemos]

One of the Wang boys won the CCTV taiji tourney last year. The standard wasn't very high though and there were no weight categories but also it was more of a fight and not push hands. He showed some good stuff there.

Also if memory serves you can see one of the guys Napoli throws smacking the canvas in anger, so i guess he wasn't happy with the out come!
The competition is representative of all PH comps in China from what i have seen in my 3 years here and the rules don't differ for foreigners, furthermore any time i have crossed hands with a local or someone coming to test my skills the nationalism comes out. You can times that by ten if it is a government approved event!

What RobP says about an Englishman (foreigner) never being as good as a Chinese guy is spot on, a friend of mine once remarked that if someone pays you a compliment on your taiji you should mentally add "for a foreigner" at the end!

Well my concern is a bit closer to what Rob said in his post a bit further back about how they won't show you. I've been around long enough to have seen good and bad Chinese, Japanese, Indonesians, you name it. The idea I get from some people commenting is that there is no one in China any good I kinda blow off because I've seen a few really good ones among all the crowds. And I've known guys who 'studied in China' so much that I don't even listen anymore -- it never tells you if they know anything just because they went to China. I saw some "Xingyi guys who studied with well known experts in China" at a Li Tai Liang workshop once and they couldn't find their butts with both hands. But they talked like they were direct carriers of the lineage and related to Kuo Yun Shen.

The point I was agreeing with Rob about is that even if you find someone pretty good they usually won't show you anything. And that's true in China too, based on stories from friends of mine, both Chinese and Americans. So if they won't show you, how many years of your life are you willing to hang around just on the offside chance you'll get a few crumbs and get past the beginner stuff? I totally agree with Rob on that.

Bob

[Andy_S]

SNIP
The competition is representative of all PH comps in China from what i have seen in my 3 years here and the rules don't differ for foreigners, furthermore any time i have crossed hands with a local or someone coming to test my skills the nationalism comes out. You can times that by ten if it is a government approved event!
SNIP

Kilted:

Yes, this is entirely my understanding also. Are you aware of any national level PH comps on the mainland, though? AFAIK, it doesn't go beyond regional. (I suspect that Henan is particularly strong, as I know that the Wenxian area is full of very competitive teachers, schools and styles - though I understand that Li Enjiu's Shandong group are also very good)

Jack:

Thanks for the kind words, but as you well know, I can be as childish as anyone on here...

[Bob Mnemos]

Are you aware of any national level PH comps on the mainland, though? AFAIK, it doesn't go beyond regional.

Thanks for making my point for me. This is exactly what I mean about how limited the western view is. Without looking up about four or five guys I know of, here's a website showing Chen Youze's bio. While not completely discussing the national tournaments, you can tell they're there. The provincial winners compete against each other and there are "national tournaments" and "national coaches" and so on:

http://zungutaiji.com/youze/Biography.html

[mixjourneyman]

Bob Mnemos: One of the key things with not showing people past beginner stuff is the fact that most ICMA are so hard to get into your body that most people never get past beginner.
Just a thought.

[Doc Stier]

One of the key things with not showing people past beginner stuff is the fact that most ICMA are so hard to get into your body that most people never get past beginner. Just a thought.

Your final comment above was right on target. It's all about getting "it" into your deeper mind first, and then expressing "it" through your body thereafter. If the foundation principles and movement patterns aren't successfully programmed into the subconscious mind, they will never be successfully manifested and expressed in the body. This is what is meant by the term "internal art", IMO.

Most practitioners primarily devote themselves to the external physical details of their style, but generally neglect the mental and psychological aspects of their art. As a result, they remain perpetual beginners who can perform one or more form set routines with varying degrees of competence, but are never able to effectively apply the techniques contained in the sets to actual live combat fighting scenarios.

As you said..."Just a thought".

Doc

[Andy_S]

Bob:

SNIP
This is exactly what I mean about how limited the western view is. Without looking up about four or five guys I know of, here's a website showing Chen Youze's bio.
SNIP

Well, limited view or cynical mind...and having lived in East Asia for 20 years I do question a lot of what I hear or read.

I know of at least four Chen players who have "national" PH comps of their CVs - but what IS this national PH comp? Where is it held? What is the league? I have asked this question several times to several people in several places and got a lot of mumbles. OTOH, if I want to find a Chinese champion in ping pong, swimming, etc, it is clear and transparent, there are national bodies. AFAIK, there are national bodies for sanda and taolu, but for PH....?

As I said, anyone who has any info on this, I would be most appreciative.

[taiwandeutscher]

Are you aware of any national level PH comps on the mainland, though? AFAIK, it doesn't go beyond regional.

Thanks for making my point for me. This is exactly what I mean about how limited the western view is. Without looking up about four or five guys I know of, here's a website showing Chen Youze's bio. While not completely discussing the national tournaments, you can tell they're there. The provincial winners compete against each other and there are "national tournaments" and "national coaches" and so on:

http://zungutaiji.com/youze/Biography.html

Bob Mnemos, I politly suggest you should go to China or SEA and look for yourself , as you don't trust anybody's observations. Stay for, say a couple of years, and then enter any kind of PH competition, on a province level, statewise or in Chenjiagou and maybe you will realize how far from reality your points are.

I live here on and of since 1983, so I know what is going on in PRC, ROC, HKG or Malaysia. But you really should go and see for yourself!

[Bob Mnemos]

Bob Mnemos, I politly suggest you should go to China or SEA and look for yourself , as you don't trust anybody's observations. Stay for, say a couple of years, and then enter any kind of PH competition, on a province level, statewise or in Chenjiagou and maybe you will realize how far from reality your points are.

I live here on and of since 1983, so I know what is going on in PRC, ROC, HKG or Malaysia. But you really should go and see for yourself!

How about if I just ask some various Chinese guys who have national-level awards and they say there national championships? Would that do? That's what I've done. I hate to make such a long trip just to find out that these guys were "far from reality", lying to me, and the real truth could have been found among the experts of EF!!! This conversation has these like sliding goals. All I said was that the Wang broz weren't all that high a level. They weren't. Then I was told there were no such thing as national level contests. So I point out Chen Youtze titles. Now I'm told that I need to realize "how far from reality my points are." You guys are gonna break my spirit yet.

Someone p.m'd me that Chen Youtze will maybe back next year and that it might be a good thing for some people on this list to come see him. I never met the guy, but here's what I'll do. If some of the experts from EF will go, I'll go too. We can all meet and have funsies.

Bob