Basic Throws

[CaliG]

shuai jiao



judo



sambo

[CaliG]

Here's that SC link:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UZc7t4wLKss

[ashe]

haven't had a chance to watch all the way through yet, but what was interesting to me was how much judo's emphasis on grabbing the gi, as opposed to wrapping, or grabbing the opponents limbs caught my eye. (at least in this clip).

[Kurt Robbins]

A lot of Judo does not translate to a no- gi environment. Judo does teach you how to use the hips.

[bruce]

haven't had a chance to watch all the way through yet, but what was interesting to me was how much judo's emphasis on grabbing the gi, as opposed to wrapping, or grabbing the opponents limbs caught my eye. (at least in this clip).

yeah ... this summer i did a lot of work with a judo black belt and he wore a gi and i did not. he was lost without a gi to grab so i put on my jacket for him lol and when he would grab i would lock his wrists and arms ... granted i am way bigger than he is ...
i think it is very important to train self defense in a way that does not rely on clothing. if you are only training sport then it is ok.

[nianfong]

you'll note that all of the SC throws do not require a jacket.

[Fubo]

I agree that people should work with and without the gi, but Judokas make use of the gi because the gi is there to use, it would be crazy not to take advantage of it if it's there. Saying that, most Judo throws are easily translatable into no-gi, some people do practice no-gi, some people don't practice it enough.

As for the videos, I see more similarities then differences.

[Kurt Robbins]

I only know a hand full of throws that translate (Uichi Mata, seoi Naga etc.) could you give some other examples (my Judo sucks - but I love the throws).
On a side note the Gi is it's own game and hindered me greatly when transitioning into submission grappling and MMA. Just my experiance.

[nianfong]

a simple test is... does the throw exist in SC?

the big throws: hip throw, shoulder throw, leg blocking, can all be done without gi. the grips are the difference usually.

the grips typically translate as:
back belt grip = arm around the waist, or underhook
sleeve grip = elbow grip
rear lapel grip = headlock

the front lapel grip doesn't really translate. however, there is often a shirt to grab there.

[Formosa Neijia]

haven't had a chance to watch all the way through yet, but what was interesting to me was how much judo's emphasis on grabbing the gi, as opposed to wrapping, or grabbing the opponents limbs caught my eye. (at least in this clip).

All the clips showed great stuff.

It isn't as easy to wrap a judo guy's limbs when they can grab the uniform. It gives them an anchor point for their hands and the grip can be hard to break. But then again, the fact that they're gripping gives some other options, as well.

AS has already been said, gi work is its own art. It's got more subtleties to it than I realized. It also allows a very technical game as compared to non-gi work.

Grabbing the limbs hasn't worked especially well for me in judo. It's pretty easy to counter and would be one of the weaknesses I see in the SC clip above. That initial grab of the wrist isn't easy to get and is pretty easy to break out of.

Of the three clips, I think the sambo guys show some of the best stuff. They seemed to have figured out how to improve on judo's weaknesses.

Dave C.

[CaliG]

As I understand it traditionally the Japanese preferred to use the the standard lapel and elbow grip (most of the time), which is understandable because from there you can apply any throw.

Then when the Russians started to dominate the sport they used a lot of techniques/grips from sambo, because this allowed them more control even if they were slower than their opponents. As a result of the Soviets the rules were changed and now you can't hold a non-traditional grip for more than 3 seconds (unless there's action).

One of the main reason you see those different grips in sambo is because those guys train gi and no-gi.

As Fubo said with MMA some judoka are training doing gi-less, in fact you see a lot of good judo guys in MMA like Karo Parisyan.

Also I agree that there are a lot more similarities than differences, which is why I posted this. I was wondering if others saw it as well. To me they all look like the same art, at least 80% of it anyway.

[Fubo]

I only know a hand full of throws that translate (Uichi Mata, seoi Naga etc.) could you give some other examples (my Judo sucks - but I love the throws).
On a side note the Gi is it's own game and hindered me greatly when transitioning into submission grappling and MMA. Just my experiance.

There are too many to mention here, but to give a few examples:

Tai Otoshi
Osoto Gari
O Goshi
Uki Goshi
Kouchi and Oouchi Gari
De Ashi Hari
Harai Goshi
Kosoto Gari
Kata Guruma
Hane Goshi
Sukui nage
Ura nage
Koshi Guruma
Tomoe nage
Tani Otoshi
Utsuri Goshi
Daki Wakare
Kuchiki Taoshi
Uchi Mata Sukashi
Osoto Makikomi
Harai Makikomi
Kibisu Gaeshi
Morote Gari
Seoi Otoshi
The list goes on...

It all a matter of realizing and train handles that work with them, which doesn't take much effort with a bit of practice. The body mechanics and principles of braking balance and posture don't change.

The gi does have it's own very involved game, and can come in hand in a lot of situations where people wear jackets even shirts. I think that the gi is an under-rated tool for training self-defense since a lot of people wear clothing in a lot of places - considering I live in the mid-west and it's cold for about 6-7 months of the year, gi training makes a lot of sense as a form of self defense training. To me both gi and no gi training are equally important.

Here is Mike Swain doing a Tai Otoshi and Uchi Mata with no gi:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgWtrGCi_VU

[Formosa Neijia]

I'm not sure about 80% the same. Judo has more chokes, sacrifice throws, gripfighting, and groundwork than SC. The sacrifice throws alone open up a lot of defensive, use-your-opponents-force-against-them opportunities. The groundwork is there as well if someone wants to develop it. Also SC has some a whole slew of jibengong that isn't found in judo. Not sure about sambo.

I agree about gi training for self-defense. I don't get attacked by many guys wearing nothing but a pair of Speedos. But maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong places.

Swain shows no-gi options for most everything he does on his ne-waza DVDs. It was nice that he put that in there. His Basic Judo DVD also shows him having his teenage boys train wrestling with the gi top off. So he obviously believes that no-gi work has a place in judo training. Swain is the man.

I do agree that SC, judo, sambo, and BJJ have a lot to share with one another.

Dave C.

[Fubo]

Swain's "Complete Judo" DVD double disc is well worth the money, and also has a book based on the clench for MMA (no-gi) - he's doing great things for Judo. His mats also kick ass, our school recently got some rollout ones for our 4 competition area annual torney, and they've made set-up a complete breeze compared to using the more traditional dojo tatamis, but now I'm going off topic, so...

[nianfong]

Dave, judo has more chokes, sacrifice throws, and groundwork (since SC does none of those, really).

but SC has WAY more gripfighting techniques than judo. the baoding 3 keys, si beng tong are predominantly grip fighting techniques.