Zhu Chun Chuan "Finger to Nose" 7-2-08

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Re: Zhu Chun Chuan "Finger to Nose" 7-2-08

Postby Bao on Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:27 am

WindWalker wrote:with my teacher and his group this is very basic and is taught very early on.


Agree, very basic. But this and similar exercises are good to find that connection, not only body, but also practicing connection mind/intent and body.

wayne hansen wrote:The aikido unbend able arm used with strength against strength and turn your body
Don't get what you see in it


I suppose you mean the clip I posted? Yes, I like it. This gent is an honest and generous teacher.

In general, I like basic instructional videos better than teachers showing off their skills without explanation. It's easy to see skill levels when people perform most basic skills. But many try to hide their lack of even the most basic skill by using class-room cooperative students or talking in riddles.

I wouldn't call it strength against strength, though it's certainly not totally effortless. But as the whole body works against a small local strength, very little effort is needed. A good, and sure, a basic way, to learn more about leverage and how to connect your body.

Aikido bendable arm? Are you sure you don't see more here? :-\ An Aikido bendable arm is an extremely limited trick, a stationary one-dimensional extension movement locked in one direction without the ability to change. If there's no supporting direction of movement and the potential to change is not there, I wouldn't call it Tai Chi. Or maybe just bad Tai Chi. This gent has more skill than showing of that kind of limited parlour tricks.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Zhu Chun Chuan "Finger to Nose" 7-2-08

Postby Appledog on Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:31 am

windwalker wrote:If one understands central equilibrium, what does it matter which point is used. Any point can be a center. Different teachers show this in different ways.


Yes, my main thought was about does the teacher actually want to teach you or not. If he doesn't then he will show you fast/free push hands and will lead you along by the nose like an ox. If he's serious about teaching then methods like this are like gambling, because they're untested and unproven and will likely have a high failure rate in passing down skill. If someone is serious about teaching and learning it is unfair not to focus on the traditional way of teaching.

Central equilibrium is interesting, but I would say hold that thought and go to this point:

marvin8 wrote:Zhang said the teacher sometimes has to show the student how to issue the different kinds of Tai Chi Chuan jing and to issue power on the student's body to show him if the power is used rightly or wrongly.

He said this is called wei jing, or feeding the jing
, to help the student understand the jing. "The teacher gives you jing by issuing it on your body and you try to give it back by
issuing it on the teacher so the teacher can tell if you are issuing it right or wrong."
...Li's wrist was injured. ...


Tai Chi as we all and you know is a secret art, and you cannot simply take something from another martial art -- even another internal art -- and use it to fuel your practice in Tai Chi. Doing so can be incredibly deceptive not only to others but most importantly to yourself. Being in the environment I have been in and just out of who I've met and personal experience (nothing special, just saying,) the reason why you need to learn from face to face instruction/word of mouth is because of the wei jing concept described above. It's not ALWAYS required one hundred percent to bring someone from 30% to 90% but quite often once you hit 90% just doing whatever with someone better can pull you along the last little bit and help you improve. For anyone who has had such an experience in training statements like "Li's wrist was injured" can have special significance. This is one of the first principles that I like to explain to people, that the secrets of the art are hidden within the biographies and stories told about the masters. But I digress. Getting the real secret out of Tai Chi is like finding a needle in a haystack. You have all the facts in front of you. You have all the information. But it's jumbled. Out of order. You see what seems to make sense; maybe, even, how other people do it. Maybe even people who are much better than you. But it isn't quite correct. All paths lead to the top, you see -- just maybe not the exact same mountain. There is nothing wrong with that I suppose, so long as you don't have a preference for the kinds of flowers on one mountain or another.
Last edited by Appledog on Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zhu Chun Chuan "Finger to Nose" 7-2-08

Postby windwalker on Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:38 am

"
Yes, my main thought was about does the teacher actually want to teach you or not. If he doesn't then he will show you fast/free push hands and will lead you along by the nose like an ox.

If he's serious about teaching then methods like this are like gambling, because they're untested and unproven and will likely have a high failure rate in passing down skill. If someone is serious about teaching and learning it is unfair not to focus on the traditional way of teaching
."

I find yours and others categorization of traditional training to be very different with those I've experienced it with.

"Traditional training" is designed to weed out people who cannot meet, or don't understand, the training requirements. It was never meant to train large groups of people, it was meant to develop those that were exceptional in most cases one went through a type of training that helped to determine many things one being ones ability to absorb the training, allowing the teacher to understand the type of clay they are working with...

As to being led like an ox, this would be true no matter what the training until one reaches a certain level of understanding.



The traditional way of teaching is not commercially viable. Which is why for some they do not run commercial gyms, or teach commercially.

My teacher in Beijing, didn't charge, or asked for money from those he trained. Having said this those that trained took care of him in the traditional way.

What you talk about as being contested or unproven, is proven and tested every time those who trained with them meet.

Many who trained using these methods have many years of practice in other arts. They understand exactly what why and how the methods are different, although they may not develop them to the highest degree or level.
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Re: Zhu Chun Chuan "Finger to Nose" 7-2-08

Postby klonk on Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:03 am

Shane_Lindsay wrote:well... its easy if you have someone pretend it works.

Watch closely at the 0.20 second mark and you'll see that the guys finger slips out of the nose and then he (the tall guy) wiggles his finger back into the nose- there's nothing impressive happening.... except that the teacher has someone willing to play along.


I saw that too.

Still, it shows that if someone follows, you can lead him into emptiness. The setup is the idea that you will stay with his nose wherever it moves. Change the setup, you will keep your finger on his palm wherever that moves, and the trick is the same but less amusing.

So, a parlor trick, but a good one. I do not see that it has any martial application. :)

Oh, wait. There is sometimes the joker who is just determined to hold your wrist. There is in that its flipside: He has given you a strong anchor point to his hand. Is his hand holding your wrist, or is your wrist controlling his use of his hand? I refer to problems of the class as monkey fist traps.

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Re: Zhu Chun Chuan "Finger to Nose" 7-2-08

Postby Taste of Death on Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:20 pm

Appledog wrote:Tai Chi as we all and you know is a secret art, and you cannot simply take something from another martial art -- even another internal art -- and use it to fuel your practice in Tai Chi. Doing so can be incredibly deceptive not only to others but most importantly to yourself.


My body conditioning is from Han Shi Yi Quan and I use it in Guang Ping Yang Taiji and push hands. The body conditioning can be put into any art.
"It was already late. Night stood murkily over people, and no one else pronounced words; all that could be heard was a dog barking in some alien village---just as in olden times, as if it existed in a constant eternity." Andrey Platonov
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Re: Zhu Chun Chuan "Finger to Nose" 7-2-08

Postby Appledog on Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:11 pm

Taste of Death wrote:
Appledog wrote:Tai Chi as we all and you know is a secret art, and you cannot simply take something from another martial art -- even another internal art -- and use it to fuel your practice in Tai Chi. Doing so can be incredibly deceptive not only to others but most importantly to yourself.


My body conditioning is from Han Shi Yi Quan and I use it in Guang Ping Yang Taiji and push hands. The body conditioning can be put into any art.


Yeah I have done some Yi Quan and various kinds of Yang/Chen/Wu/Sun Taiji and yes I know you can put it in there, but it is not correct "Tai Chi" to do so. Yes I know it works, because it comes from a real and viable martial art. But that isn't my point. A lot of stuff works, and yes I know a lot of people do Tai Chi it that way -- which actually explains a lot when you think about it. All I can do is offer to explain to you why it is wrong and show you why (and I am not talking about fighting or some kind of pushing contest, just an explanation is all that is needed). You might think I am nitpicking actually. But I believe it is actually important in the long run. Anyways, I don't mean to tell you that you are wrong in that you are doing something good, just that it is different from orthodox proper "Tai Chi'. The whole thing is really quite simple but I just don't feel like going into depth on a keyboard.

Edit: Now that I have had a bit more time and this has been on my mind for a while I can point out for example the Stephan Berwick interview with Ken Gullette on the IFA podcast. He basically states in so many words that the way in which this kind of core energy has been talked about recently is not applicable to Tai Chi, that the Tai Chi method is different, and is trained differently. If I come up with anything else or if people have questions I'll try to write more on the subject.
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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