Waist vs. hip, internal discipline

[D_Glenn]

Btw, what does "hands hit 3, legs hit 7" mean?

I believe it describes a ratio of 3 to 7. There should always be at least 2 points of contact, hand and leg, usually 3 or more points though like the hand and the upper part of the arm, the supporting hand (fu shou), more parts of the leg and foot etc. and the subtle leg attacks or successful contact of leg hitting opponent's leg is higher than the hands landing, which also shows the importance of the legs and stepping. In many situations if the hands are countered one just has to take a step to counter attack.

Bagua has some deep leg skills that aren't like kicks. The only real implement training I've heard of is putting a large bag of rice on the forward thigh and trying to get the extremely short jin of the leg/knee which is a bursting forward force called 'beng', this is used in all the 'shun bu' type strikes. It's possibly the hardest skill to learn that I've come across but one of the most important. It's real short, meaning the knee/leg barely moves but the bag of rice should be sent flying. This is used usually towards the side or back of the opponents leg again at the same time as the hand is landing.


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[Wu_Style_Disciple]

Here's how my "hips" move me throughout the 108 Standard (Segmented) Form, rather than just the "waist":

[PlumDragon]

they play a supporting and guiding role, but should not do the bulk of the work, the movement of the arms ultimately should tie into the more global pattern of extension that occurs through the whole posterior chain....but keep moving howver you like

Raising the arms like in the video is shoulder flexion. The primary mover for shoulder flexion is the deltoid. Extension (arm moves posterior from the waist) is the lats.

[C.J.Wang]

Btw, what does "hands hit 3, legs hit 7" mean?

I believe it describes a ratio of 3 to 7. There should always be at least 2 points of contact, hand and leg, usually 3 or more points though like the hand and the upper part of the arm, the supporting hand (fu shou), more parts of the leg and foot etc. and the subtle leg attacks or successful contact of leg hitting opponent's leg is higher than the hands landing, which also shows the importance of the legs and stepping. In many situations if the hands are countered one just has to take a step to counter attack.

Bagua has some deep leg skills that aren't like kicks. The only real implement training I've heard of is putting a large bag of rice on the forward thigh and trying to get the extremely short jin of the leg/knee which is a bursting forward force called 'beng', this is used in all the 'shun bu' type strikes. It's possibly the hardest skill to learn that I've come across but one of the most important. It's real short, meaning the knee/leg barely moves but the bag of rice should be sent flying. This is used usually towards the side or back of the opponents leg again at the same time as the hand is landing.


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The explanation I have been given is that in striking, 70% of power comes from lower body while 30% from upper body.

As for the Bagua leg skills, I also believe that the word "kick" is a misnomer. Oftentimes the leg attacks are just the results of moving the whole body as a unit into the opponent's space.

[D_Glenn]

The explanation I have been given is that in striking, 70% of power comes from lower body while 30% from upper body.

As for the Bagua leg skills, I also believe that the word "kick" is a misnomer. Oftentimes the leg attacks are just the results of moving the whole body as a unit into the opponent's space.

That doesn't make sense to me. 99% of the power comes from the waist, that is what makes bagua unique that it doesn't rely on the legs for power so the legs and arms can do 2 different things. It's why bagua appears to be hitting as the feet are off the ground. As you said the leg attacks are result of moving into the opponent but the legs have their own 'jins' that happen simultaneously as the hand's, not possible if the jin in the legs was solely being transferred up to the arms.

I think it would be safe to say that it means: 70% of the effectiveness of the strike comes from the legs 'jin', while only 30% of the strikes effectiveness is actually coming from the hand's 'jin', provided the legs make contact and at the same time as the hands.

. sorry to borrow your thread Wu, but this is Empty Flower.

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[I-mon]

of course the shoulder is involved. the muscles of the back will contract if you try to keep your spine and pelvis still when you raise your arm, in order to keep the same structure while the centre of gravity moves. the more still you're able to keep your spine, the more evenly the muscles will engage, and a wave of contraction will move up from your pelvic floor very clearly through the muscles of the lower back and between the shoulder blades to the back of the neck, as you raise the arms. it starts in the pelvic floor as you begin to raise the arms, as the supporting muscles need to push the base of the still spine (ie the perineum) against the ground in response to the upwards movement of the hand.

so the moving part has to work, but all the parts which keep the rest of the body still, are the parts which are really getting worked.

this has actually been my great revelation in the last month or two. it's fucking awesome and you guys who don't know what i'm talking about AREN'T INTERNAL.

[C.J.Wang]

That doesn't make sense to me. 99% of the power comes from the waist, that is what makes bagua unique that it doesn't rely on the legs for power so the legs and arms can do 2 different things. It's why bagua appears to be hitting as the feet are off the ground. As you said the leg attacks are result of moving into the opponent but the legs have their own 'jins' that happen simultaneously as the hand's, not possible if the jin in the legs was solely being transferred up to the arms.


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Ah...I wasn't aware that we were just focusing on Bagua. The 30/70 saying is quite common among practitioners of Northern systems. I believe I first heard it from a Shaolin teacher.

I agree with your idea about the waist in Bagua and how legs and arms can do two things.

[GrahamB]

of course the shoulder is involved. the muscles of the back will contract if you try to keep your spine and pelvis still when you raise your arm, in order to keep the same structure while the centre of gravity moves. the more still you're able to keep your spine, the more evenly the muscles will engage, and a wave of contraction will move up from your pelvic floor very clearly through the muscles of the lower back and between the shoulder blades to the back of the neck, as you raise the arms. it starts in the pelvic floor as you begin to raise the arms, as the supporting muscles need to push the base of the still spine (ie the perineum) against the ground in response to the upwards movement of the hand.

so the moving part has to work, but all the parts which keep the rest of the body still, are the parts which are really getting worked.

this has actually been my great revelation in the last month or two. it's fucking awesome and you guys who don't know what i'm talking about AREN'T INTERNAL.

Sure, 'postural' muscles of the back have to be doing something to keep you standing up. That's kind of a given. However, there's a huge difference between 'getting worked' and 'prime mover'. The back muscles are not the prime mover in raising the arms. Simple as.

I think it's, frankly, internal arts disappearing up its own bum in a puff of illogic to think so. Is that the ultimate in internal?

[I-mon]

Sure, 'postural' muscles of the back have to be doing something to keep you standing up. That's kind of a given. However, there's a huge difference between 'getting worked' and 'prime mover'. The back muscles are not the prime mover in raising the arms. Simple as.

I think it's, frankly, internal arts disappearing up its own bum in a puff of illogic to think so. Is that the ultimate in internal?

Graham = NOT INTERNAL.

[GrahamB]

I think you're right. And you know what? The more years I read EmptyFlower, the less and less I am inclined to want to be classified as internal. Reading all the threads about 'deep' this and 'internal' that and dan tien this and spinal wave that it's kind of... embarrassing

[Ian]

the more still you're able to keep your spine, the more evenly the muscles will engage, and a wave of contraction will move up from your pelvic floor very clearly through the muscles of the lower back and between the shoulder blades to the back of the neck, as you raise the arms.

well I raise my shoulders by lifting my grain path ONLY.

are you sure you received the full transmission?

[I-mon]

so Graham you are saying yourself that you actually don't want to believe in anything deeper than what you currently understand.

I should also have included the inner thighs/kua in what I wrote, but really there is a kind of elastic pulling feeling which goes through the whole body (obviously there are lots of gaps wherever the body is weak or tense, which is what we work to correct through practice). The feeling is of bracing the base of the spine against the ground, the whole lower abdomen compresses in towards the spine and this base has to remain firm and stable and contsantly actively driving and stabilising the whole movement from beginning to end. it is a very clear feeling of muscle groups strongly contracting, as obvious as the chest contracting when you do pushups.

[GrahamB]

I go pretty deep.



I just think talking about it is doomed to failure - it always ends up sounding... daft. You know, like lifting your arms up with your arse. Tell me that's not funny

[cdobe]

I just think talking about it is doomed to failure - it always ends up sounding... daft. You know, like lifting your arms up with your arse. Tell me that's not funny

It all comes down to whether you can create enough blow back to make it happen.


To add something serious to the debate, I'ld like to say that in Taiji you can change your way of moving by using different mental images. To tell someone to lift the arms not from the shoulders is simply a way of teaching to incorporate and blend in other movement elements into the execution of a posture. It's like saying that your head is suspended from the crown of of your head, which is helpful to get a feel for the right posture, but is not actually the case.

CD

[GrahamB]

Blow back would be fine. What you don't want is follow through