Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

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Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:37 am

Much of this wasn't on the original show:

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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby Bill on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:04 am

Can someone put into words what the video is about?
Thanks.
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby Drake on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:28 am

After watching for just a few minute, Bill, it's bad slap boxing. :/
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby GrahamB on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:43 am

This is the REAL SHANXI!
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby Strange on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:57 pm

if you go in and cannot hit or control your opponent, it is not good.
if you can retreat and maintain form and composure, it shows good understanding of martial art and good practice.
this is the case no matter what kind of ma you are talking about

... actually in xylh, one key requirement/characteristic is 进步移人, or "advance step displace opponent"... some would say that if you cannot do this, it is actually not considered having any significant "amount" of ma.
Last edited by Strange on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:17 pm

As Strange noted, the main problem with the XYQ players, especially the first one throughout the first half of the video, was an inability to reach the opponent's mass and displace it. Watch closely some 1-2 minutes of the first half, and you'll easily notice that most strikes do not reach the opponent's body/face, and would not have reached them even if the Wing Chun guy was not defending! Other core issues include:

- Hands reach before feet.

- Body leans backwards as hands go forwards.

- Kua doesn't push the body forward.

etc.

Sadly, it's also evidence that the tall WC guy was often taking it easy on them, to save their faces (both physically and metaphorically). There is a point at which the WC guy has a headlock on the first XYQ man, but does not really lock it so not to humiliate him. He was also very defensive most of the time, and clearly did not fight at full capacity.

I still think that the main problem was footwork, as Strange noted. XYQ and all its predecessors are based on the concept of attempting to 'step where the opponent stands', and this is not attempted in the video. The legs stay behind.

Bill wrote:Can someone put into words what the video is about?
Thanks.


This is footage taken for a reality TV show in China, focusing on taking young Wing Chun and MMA guys to train and fight with exponents of various traditional Chinese arts. Each episode was dedicated to 1-3 arts. There was an episode dedicated to XYQ, XinYi Liu He and Dai XinYi. In that episode, a few XYQ people (though not XinYi practitioners) fought the hosts (Wing Chun guy and MMA guy), and did poorly against them overall. The episode and the sparring matches shown on it brought much online debate, including on this forum. Most of the footage shown on the video I posted here was originally taken for that episode, but was eventually cut and not shown on that episode that many have already seen.
Last edited by jonathan.bluestein on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby vadaga on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:39 pm

the last guy (blue shirt) demonstrated the best technique I thought. he made the host take off his glasses and get serious at least
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:53 pm

I believe one of our RSF members actually trains with the Shanxi Xingyi folks who appeared and fought against the two HK hosts with WC background on the show.

If I remember the episode correctly, right before the tall HK WC guy and the older Xingyi guy go into sparring, the two of them engaged in some Xingyi conditioning drills and body bumping exercises in which the Xingyi guy totally dominated. It's just ironic to see how quickly the tables are turned once the Xingyi guy is taken out of his familiar territory.
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby Andy_S on Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:52 am

The HK guys were pretty impressive: They know how to freestyle with their WC and have some grappling. I just got the sense the HsingI guys don't have any sparring experience:
- They don't guard their heads;
- They lack composure (the master at the beginning is using about three times as much energy as his opponent, who is clearly more relaxed in sparring);
- And perhaps most seriously from a CMA perspective, they don't bridge/take the bridge and are unable to close, hence all the slapping hands and flailing around.

Still, it could have been worse; the two HK chaps were pretty restrained. Imagine the massacre if a group of (say) boxers, kickboxers or BJJ peeps had gone out for a throw down....
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby middleway on Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:13 am

That's the real point for me. The wc guys were seemingly taking it fairly easy, and they didnt display the level of skill most good level mma guys show. (Prob cause they wanted to save the face of the 'masters')

If these xing yi guys faced a good or even mediocre mma or Muay Thai fighter they would have been thoroughly dominated IMO.

Xing yi had a rep for massive power, crushing forward intent and fast efficient finishing... Where is any of this in xing yi's home!!! :(

No matter the lineage, history, style background, place, etc ... Words and excuses fail in the face if a determined opponent.... Even an opponent just feeling you out on a tv show.

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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby JonathanArthur on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:04 am

None of this would have been an issue if people didn't make such a fuss about what they do. This could have been a 20min intro to a good few hours training working on the issues and faults that arose. Instead everybody backs away all handshakes and smiles. I wonder how many excuses were sounded off following the event?!

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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:44 pm

JonathanArthur wrote:This could have been a 20min intro to a good few hours training working on the issues and faults that arose. Instead everybody backs away all handshakes and smiles. I wonder how many excuses were sounded off following the event?!


I find that this has nothing to do with Xing Yi. It's just a matter of Chinese culture. Social harmony matters more than 'realism' in either martial arts or relationships. They don't look at the matter the same as you do. Face is more important to them than other things.

But given this particular example - would any Western teacher admit he is not good on national TV and then follow by allowing younger men of a different martial art to teach him how to get better? Since I don't see this happening with any other teacher in any other country, it might just be that you're expecting too much of them... =\
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby Areios on Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:04 am

they should get an mma glove... and start hitting the face light, but to confirm that hit.
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby Andy_S on Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:00 am

SNIP
But given this particular example - would any Western teacher admit he is not good on national TV and then follow by allowing younger men of a different martial art to teach him how to get better?
SNIP

Well, they may not have been "teachers" but there was that very good Discovery Channel documentary "Fight Quest." On it, two very personable American MMA guys travel the world learning various different MA then having a style-specific ruck at the end of it. IMHO, it looked like they could have taken out many of the guys they were training under with ease if they used the full range of skills they had at their disposals, but each time, they played the game according to the style's specific requirements.

SNIP
Since I don't see this happening with any other teacher in any other country, it might just be that you're expecting too much of them... =\
SNIP

You are probably right on the "face" issue.

But things in China are getting better, bit by bit: There is that semi-set up CCTV show where the young masters of various styles fight in a kind of reduced sanda format, and now there we have this show from HK TV. At least there is now SOME level of contact and competition....clearly, Chinese also wonder, "What do our traditional MA look like in actual application?"

The question in the next few years may be, "Why is it that our traditional martial arts can't fight effectively or distinctively with their style-specific concepts and techniques?" Once that question is asked enough, perhaps we will see some real progress.

As it is, the fact that so many Chinese take up TKD, karate, kickboxing, etc, suggests that many full-blood Chinese question the value of their own national MA. (I am not just talking about the mainland; this movement is very visible in HK, Singapore, Taiwan, etc.) There are those who will say that, perhaps those Chinese who are interested in real CMA are (like so many westerners) unable to locate the "real deal."

The problem with the latter assumption is that shows like the two mentioned above make pretty clear that the "real deal" do not have the awesome fighting skills that they are legendarily supposed to possess: At best, there are some decent, but hardly masterly, scrappers. But this is healthy. A cold, hard dash of reality is not a bad thing.
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Re: Xing Yi vs. Wing Chun - the unedited version (unreleased)

Postby JonathanArthur on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:07 am

I find that this has nothing to do with Xing Yi. It's just a matter of Chinese culture. Social harmony matters more than 'realism' in either martial arts or relationships. They don't look at the matter the same as you do. Face is more important to them than other things.


This, to some extent, I've found to be true.

But given this particular example - would any Western teacher admit he is not good on national TV and then follow by allowing younger men of a different martial art to teach him how to get better? Since I don't see this happening with any other teacher in any other country, it might just be that you're expecting too much of them... =\


CIMA is a culturally specific vehicle of intra-personal development for many and I take no issue with that. But often when somebody is questioned whether the 'MA' they practice is actually a valid method of fighting they instantly leap to it's defence and sometimes confuse themselves as to their motivation for practice in the process. If the pretence and ego could be set aside the result of honest questioning could have great benefits for an individual's practice; but instead we reflexively say what 'we are supposed to say' and limit ourselves by doing so.

It is possible to be clear about our aims and have the humility and enthusiasm to embrace the smallest opportunity to progress when it presents itself, even in China.



I was looking at this from my personal perspective and was not taking into account the cultural context.
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