Madam Fu Shu Yun

[Steve James]

The sword forms are not baguaTaiji actually.

Fair enough. Hmm, I suppose they'd have a dao form anyway. Re: circle walking, do they do it in your baguataiji?

[Steve James]

Ya'll have got me curious. Who recognizes this?



or this


Some kind Chinese speaker could translate the sequences maybe?

[Robert Young]

The sword forms are not baguaTaiji actually.

Fair enough. Hmm, I suppose they'd have a dao form anyway. Re: circle walking, do they do it in your baguataiji?

I think there are some confusion. I'm a LF guy. We do practice Yang's TaiChi, but not baguataiji.

Just to clearify. We practice the second sword form, 三才劍. And, it has that circle walking you mentioned. But, the circle walking only has 3 steps and it is not like those in Bagua that do circle walk back the forth with other body moves all the time.

Baguataiji was from some teacher in NanJin institute mixing taichi and bagua for exercise. It was a form created for easier practice. Although it does show people how to mix two systems together, it was more for academic purpose. If students are really serious in either one of the systems, they should go directly to learn the Bagua and/or TaiChi seperatively.

[Doc Stier]

Baguataiji was from some teacher in NanJin institute mixing taichi and bagua for exercise. It was a form created for easier practice. Although it does show people how to mix two systems together, it was more for academic purpose. If students are really serious in either one of the systems, they should go directly to learn the Bagua and/or TaiChi seperatively.

Totally agreed. Good advice.

Generally speaking, those who have been the most successful in combining more than one style usually have experiential expertise with each of the component styles.

This seems to hold true whether they train the component styles separately, or train form sets which unite postures from each style within the same set. In either case, the movements and techniques of the joined styles are meant to be employed together when fighting.

[Miro]

Andy,

good questions (and thanks for advice). I agree with answers given to you by Bailewen. From the outside, the style is nothing special - it is not more deadly than any other martial arts like bagua, taiji or xingyi, I would say it is exactly the same - you can kill or fail... But from the inside, it is something like "private club" - something you will share with very close friend only...

Steve,

the first video shows Zhao Fulin and his bagua-taiji, I do not know the performer on the second video.

Miro

[Steve James]

Hi Miro,

long time. Since ya'll had been discussing the different sequences, I was wondering if you recognized the ones in the videos. The second one seems newer and shorter. I was also curious about the names of the movements given in Zhao's form. I also questioned whether anyone's baguataiji contained circle walking. (Fwiw, I agree with ya'll that it's something created by people who were recognized masters of bagua and taijiquan --at a time when people were gaining more opportunities to share arts and ideas).

I think that, perhaps, some of the interest in baguataijiquan is that it is one of those Taiwanese (i.e. "Real Chinese") arts that were not "wu shu-ified" by the "Communists." So, it's one of those things that people try to protect.

[Miro]

Hi Steve,

yes, it is a long time, hope you are well. Both videos are bagua-taiji, Zhao Fulin is more close to He Fusheng than gentleman on other video. The names given in Zhao's form are more-less the same. There is no circle walking in BG-TJQ, but it contains a lot of twisting (which is the cause and principle of circle walking - so you can perhaps say there is circle walking without actual physical walking).
I disagree with idea of it being "Real Chinese" or not-wushuized art, that is not important in this case. As Bailewen said, it is really secretive style - you learned it because of special relationship (guanxi) with someone who knows it. It was not given to regular students, not even to all disciples, it was given only to some special people, to close friends or people you like. One could perhaps say that BG-TJQ maybe is not as much martial arts as it is friendship arts.

Miro

[Steve James]

I disagree with idea of it being "Real Chinese" or not-wushuized art, that is not important in this case.

Okay, but I think you know what I mean. I'd only heard it spoken about by Taiwanese expats who were very nationalistic, and it was one of those things that was kept away from the "communists." It's not my personal opinion. Some claimed that the PRC actively sought to get rid of the styles and masters they couldn't standardize or control. Anyway, that's the kind of story they used to tell.

There is no circle walking in BG-TJQ, but it contains a lot of twisting (which is the cause and principle of circle walking - so you can perhaps say there is circle walking without actual physical walking).

Ah, yeah, the twisting is a characteristic, especially the spiralling up and down. In Zhao's form, it is much more apparent (imv). But, he's in his 70s or 80s at the time of the video. I think it'd be more overt when a younger person did it. (Not complaining about his form, btw).

[bailewen]

Well I'll be damned. A new (to me anyways) Baguataijiquan clip.

The first clip, the He Fusheng clip is new to me and, stylistic differences aside, the frame is close enough. It's clearly the same sequence that I learned (give or take a move here or there).

The other clip is the one from Yuen Ming I alluded to earlier, barely recoqnizeable as the same style I learned.

... There is no circle walking in BG-TJQ, but it contains a lot of twisting (which is the cause and principle of circle walking - so you can perhaps say there is circle walking without actual physical walking).

...and in parts, specific bagua footwork has been blended in. There is bai-kou sequence footwork and at least one classic single palm change. There's piercing palms, drilling palms etc. Plenty of Xingyi too.

[bailewen]

Ah, yeah, the twisting is a characteristic, especially the spiralling up and down. In Zhao's form, it is much more apparent (imv). But, he's in his 70s or 80s at the time of the video. I think it'd be more overt when a younger person did it. (Not complaining about his form, btw).

This is one thing that actually kind of bothers me about both of those performances. What do I know. I'm just a "kid" with this thing. I only know Shifu doesn't show any of that at all. He talks about it but, the way I understand it, you'r not suppose to show it. Should be really really tiny. I only have one training brother who really goes there, visibly twisting and spiraling. My understanding of it is that it's really super small frame. You apply/transform power along spirally paths but not nearly so exaggerated as in the video.

OTOH, it is a performance we are watching. And, like Robert Young said, forms are like musical pieces. Each musician has their own take on the classics. Sometimes two really great covers of the same song can be really really different.

[Miro]

I just discovered this website:

http://www.ynwushu.cn/news_look.php?id=235

Miro

[salcanzonieri]

Liu Dekuan taught his version of Yang taijiquan, which in modern times has been called "baguataijiquan" (八卦太極拳), to Cheng Youlong (程有龍) (Cheng Tinghua's eldest son), Guo Gumin (郭古民) (Liang Zhenpu's (梁振浦) disciple), and Wu Junshan (吳俊山) (Shi Jidong's (史計棟) disciple). Cheng Youlong taught Li Cunyi's disciple Guo Zhushan (郭鑄山) in his father's name. Guo Gumin taught Wu Yue (吳岳). Wu Junshan taught Zhang Xiangwu (張驤伍) of the Baji school, Fu Shuyun (傅淑雲) who later emigrated to Taiwan, He Fusheng (何福生), and Zhang Wenguang (張文廣) of the Cha school.

The main reason hardly anyone learned it, is because the original version was way too long. At the Nanjing academy, Fu has learned the full version.The version done now by has been shortened to take out all the repeats, but none of the original postures.

Wu also taught Ba Gua Tai Ji Quan, at the Central Martial Arts Academy, when he was the head of the school’s Bagua Department. Bagua Taiji Quan (八卦太極拳) was one of the five styles of Taiji taught at the famed Central Martial Arts Academy in Nanjing in the 1930s. Wu incorporated the essence of a secret Bagua Wudang sword manuscript revealed to him by Li Jing Ling (李景林), giving the style a unique coiling linear feel. It is said that Bagua Taiji combines the footwork and spiraling of Bagua, the waist and leg power of Taiji and the linear striking of Xingyi Quan. Besides these influences, the style employs the attributes of five animals: cat, bear, dragon, crane and tiger. The cat symbolizes the stillness of the entire body when stepping; the bear refers to the rounded shoulders expressing the whole power of the body; the dragon describes the coiled, slightly folded appearance of the trunk of the body, reflecting Chinese paintings of dragons moving through the clouds; the crane represents the ability to shift weight clearly and linearly; and the tiger describes the spirit inside – the power of the entire spirit expressed throughout the form.

In the 1930s, Bagua Taiji formed part of the curriculum at the Nanjing Academy for which proficiency in Yang Style was a prerequisite; but its length, some 145 postures, and its complexity were barriers to learning. Thus, once the work of the institute was interrupted by the war with Japan, few studying at the academy had accomplished it. Only Li Yuan Zhi (李元智), Fu Shu Yun (傅淑雲) and a handful of others are known to have learnt the system in its entirety. Li Yuan Zhi, who had studied with Liu De Kuan (劉德寬) in his youth and whose father in law was the famed Chinese wrestler Tong Zhong Yi (佟忠義), worked as Wu Jun Shan’s assistant and aided in its development. Fu Shu Yun, one of the stars of the academy (Fu famously represented China at the 1936 Berlin Olympics), also worked closely with Wu Jun Shan after moving with the school to Kunming prior to the Kuomingtang’s loss of the Mainland. Subsequently, both Li Yuan Zhi and Fu Shu Yun moved to Taiwan with what remained of the Nationalist forces (Li to Kaohsiung and Fu to Gangshan). Wu later moved to Jiangjin County in Sichuan province.