Madam Fu Shu Yun

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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:45 pm

About Fu Shu Yun
An Interview with Fu Shu Yun – The Journal of Traditional Eastern Health & Fitness


... Fu Shu-Yun was therefore able to study ...[snip...]Bagua-Tai, was taught by its creator, Wu Jun-Shan. This synthesized form, which mixed Tai Ji and Ba Gua together, was learned by only a few people. Fu Shu Yun is believed to be the only person in Taiwan who learned it.


FWIW, "Bagua-Tai" is not a style or a form. It's a typo. It should be "bagua-taijiquan".

A real shame, from my perspective, that she never passed down this form. From what I head, all she taught of it was a simplified version of her own creationg. Also, incidentally, I don't think Wu Junshan is the creator. He's more likely 2nd generation. The oral history says it goes back to Yang Luchan but even the more academic research suggests maybe Liu Dekuan or even possiby Xia Guoxun. In any case, it seems to predate Wu Junshan by at least one generation.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:51 pm

Its not that uncommon a set - Albert Liu used to teach it, and I saw it several times in Nanjing and Shanghai
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:54 pm

You must be talking about Fu Shuyun's simplified version because so far, I have been unable to find a single other teacher of the style anywhere other than the one 30 second clip that Yuen Ming posted a few years back and even that one is only barely recognizeable.

There are many, fairly common "baguataijiquan" forms out there but the one that Wu Junshan passed down is rarer than hen's teeth. As far as Youtube, fwiw, beyond the one clip I mentioned...it just doesn't exist. I've looked. Heck, I'm still looking. If you actually know someone on the mainland with our lineage, I would f'ing jump on that connection. I'd love to see it...not video, just to connect with the person somehow.
Last edited by bailewen on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:59 pm

No, I am talking about Wu Junshan's set - there were also other student's from Wu's tenure at the Nanjing Guoshu academy who learned and passed it on - several in Taiwan. Absence of a youtube presence is not evidence of absence
Last edited by kenneth fish on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:02 pm

p.s.

lineage chart put together a local kung fu academic:
Image

That's pretty much everyone we were able to come up with as of several years back when his book came out. Oddly, Fu Shuyun seems to be the one name on the entire chart I forgot to add English for. :-\ Wasn't on purpose. :-[

there were also other student's from Wu's tenure at the Nanjing Guoshu academy who learned and passed it on -

Well, you can see from my chart, I've got at least 4 other Wu Junshan students up there. "Learned it" is one thing. It's the "passed it on" part I would like to see. (honestly. I would like to see it. No sarcasm intended here at all) And yes, we've talked to some of the Taiwan folk. That's how we learned that Fu Shuyun never passed on Wu Junshan's set. Her students only do a short form version. Anyways, I am not invested in there not being other lines. We have tried to find them. They just seem either pretty damn rare or pretty damn secret. And of course youtube says exactly what you said it does. There are no youtube clips of our own version out there either. I've posted a bunch of clips but the Wu Junshan form has been kept for "bai shi" students only.
Last edited by bailewen on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:03 pm

In her 80s, she could still put nose to toe while standing.

Btw, I've always meant to ask if you got to know Franklin Kwong? He was a conduit to many people who didn't advertise.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:06 pm

You asking Kenneth Fish?
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:08 pm

bailewen wrote:You asking Kenneth Fish?


Ah yeah, there were several posts before I had time to post mine. Franklin Kwong (Kwong Yung-cheng) was in NYC in the 70s and 80s.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:02 pm

I know the name - I think I might have met him in the early 1980's, but don't really recall.

Bai Lewen: As I said, I know that Albert Liu taught it. Madame Fu certainly demonstrated it. Students of He Fusheng were around and practicing in Nanjing. Its not shown that way on your chart, but I think Zhao Fulin taught it.

Also, there is always the conundrum of how to know if what you are doing is as the founder taught it, or if it more closely resembled the way other teachers demonstrate it.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:16 pm

Re: Kwong. If you happen to recall Wen Shan Huang's old book "Fundamentals of Tai Chi Chuan," Kwong was the one pictured doing the demonstrations.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:27 pm

[quote="kenneth fish"
Bai Lewen: As I said, I know that Albert Liu taught it. Madame Fu certainly demonstrated it. [/quote]
At some point in the past, Shifu managed to get in contact with one of Madam Fu's students and that's when he learned about her simpified 42 step version. With regards to this:
Also, there is always the conundrum of how to know if what you are doing is as the founder taught it, or if it more closely resembled the way other teachers demonstrate it.


...I think it's generally pretty safe to say that when you have a 42 step and a 103 step, the original is going to be the long form. That plus word from the student that the 42 step version was her own creation.

Students of He Fusheng were around and practicing in Nanjing. Its not shown that way on your chart, but I think Zhao Fulin taught it.


No. Zhao is on there. Just not under Wu Junshan. We've got Zhao Fulin listed as a student of Li Yuanzhi who in turn is listed under Liu Dekuan. I think maybe that's where the Yuenming clip came from. Don't remember for sure though.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby edededed on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:12 am

Here is a student of Guo Gumin's who published his "pu" for "baguataijiquan" from Liu Dekuan.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_6bc0c6d40100m9j1.html
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Miro on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:09 am

I studied with Fu Shuyun during her last five years or so until she passed away (Yang taiji, bagua and xingyi). I am not aware she taught any simplified form of bagua-taiji, on the contrary, she used to say many times that she will take her bagua-taiji to the grave (she performed many times, especially in USA, various mixed free forms of Yang taiji and bagua-taiji, but those performances were not simplified bagua-taiji and certainly not her true bagua-taiji, I have some tapes of those performances). Of course me together with other students of her public class in Taipei (afaik, she did not accept any formal disciple) wanted to learn or even to show us her baguataiji, she always refused - but once I performed my bagua-taiji to her and she said it is almost the same as her bagua-taiji - I learned bagua-taiji from He Fusheng in Mainland China (together with 4 other Taiwanese from the Department of Guoshu of Chinese Culture University in Taipei where I studied at that time). Zhao Fulin's bagua-taiji is quite different from what I learned fom He Fusheng. One of those teachers has video of bagua-taiji on YouTube but he modified it.
It is interesting you started with this thread because recently I started to think about making DVD of bagua-taiji - a friend of mine who is professional camera man wants me to do this (because I told him once that I am probably the only guy in Europe who knows it and he thinks it would be pity if I would die) but I am still not sure... because of applications. I am not a fan of applications (especially not of those "cooking recipes" like one arm goes here, another there) and both taiji and bagua contain a lot of dangerous movements (breaking the neck etc.), should I show them, too?

Miro
Last edited by Miro on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:33 am

... she used to say many times that she will take her bagua-taiji to the grave...


Even more conservative than what I remembered hearing. Maybe the simplified thing was something here students put together from the bits and pieces they had been exposed to over the years. It also matches more closely with my understanding of this particular frame as being, even today, pretty damn rare and secretive.
...she performed many times, especially in USA, various mixed free forms of Yang taiji and bagua-taiji...

That is essentially how Shifu deals with having to do public performances. I've watched a few, videod a couple. It's always sort of freeform improvisation of movements from the form and sometimes even with Hao of Yang bits mixed in. Only about 3 or 4 years ago, he finally created a (roughly) 6 minute short form that is to bagua-taijiquan what the beijing 24 is to Yang Chengfu's 88. (85?). Vastly simplified, vastly shortened. Taught completely publically and all the moves are good and applicable but still really quite a long ways from the real bagua-taijiquan.

Completely agree with you about applications. It can be frustrating though. There clearly are endless "set" applications but Shifu is adamant that "setting" a move to a specific application just kills the form. It makes it "dead".
Last edited by bailewen on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Click here for my Baji Leitai clip.
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p.s. the name is pronounced "buy le when"
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:51 am

kenneth fish wrote:...there is always the conundrum of how to know if what you are doing is as the founder taught it, or if it more closely resembled the way other teachers demonstrate it.

Excellent point, Ken.

As one clear example, every major family style of Tai-Chi Chuan has been subjected to one or more modifications by successive generations of family masters. Both these newer versions and the older original versions of each style have been taught by individuals with varied learning experience, ranging from a couple of years of instruction to a decade or more of instruction. As a result, the degree of correction and refinement achieved by every teacher when they were a student is always reflected both in their personal demonstration and expression of the training material, as well as in their teaching of same. Hence, the many existing variations of each style and form set. This occurs in every generation of practitioners and teachers even today.

I believe, therefore, that the best benchmark for determining how authentic and accurate the instruction any of us have received really is can only found in our personal replication of skills and benefits achieved by our predecessors in seriously practicing and training the same methods over an extended period of time, let's say 10 years or longer on a daily basis. Logic would thus suggest that if you are unable to demonstrate the same or similar physical and athletic attributes, and are unable to demonstrate the same or similar practical combat capabilities in real life fighting scenarios, you probably aren't practicing the same training methods that the founder and early generations did. -shrug-
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