Madam Fu Shu Yun

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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:56 pm

Doc:

That is exactly what I was getting at. My own teachers were very strict in terms of making sure a student's movements were as close as possible to theirs - but they had no control over the internal dialogue of the student, or their actual talent or ability to absorb what was taught. As an example, my Xingyi teacher, Master Zhang Junfeng taught his wife very strictly - she became the main teacher of the school. Her movements and understanding were very close to Master Zhang's. However, out of the several thousand students he had over a lifetime, maybe 8 or 10 really reflected his teachings. What I have seen of other students from the same (and as I said, very strict) school, has varied wildly, even as far as the outward appearance of the movements.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby edededed on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:03 pm

I have often heard that traditional CMA teachers only showed movements once (or maybe twice) as a rule - perhaps not the most easy-to-follow teaching method, but it does get the students to try and get as much as they can in just the one go... Due to the limits of people, I think that sometimes, the great variation in students may be a result of this. I wonder if Master Zhang taught his wife much more carefully, or if he had different methods of teaching different students?

Still, often you can tell very easily whose students people are by their movements - for example, Liu Jingru's students and Sun Zhijun's students have a flavor that is almost exactly like their teachers...
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Robert Young on Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:08 pm

In CMA, we have a saying. Under a teacher, and among first generation student, you see most of the people move similar with minor variation. The second generation, you see fifty percent similarity and fifty percent difference. When it gets to the third generation, you see most difference and minor similarity.

It is the reality no matter how much a teacher wants to keep it the same.

My LF uncle Shen, MaoHui always teaches his students to exactly copy from him; the moves need to be the same, the way to do the moves (the expression of moves) needs to be the same, even the clothes they wear need to be the same. It is very easy to identify his students. Yet, his early students' moves are somewhat different from his later students' moves. This is from someone who intentionally want to unify the moves of his students.

On the other hands, my teacher only focus on the moves. He actually prefer students to express their own way of moves. Now, you can imaging how much difference our LF brothers' moves can vary.

Other extreme case, my PM GM Wong Song-Ting taught the same form differently every times to different students depending on the students' ability.

So, every CMA masters have their own ways of teaching. There is no one particular type of teaching in CMA. What I just mentioned is only in my own system or family, not mentioned so many different CMA systems out there.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:34 pm

Both Master and Mrs. Zhang were pretty patient in that regard - they would both show a movement numerous times. They expected you to grasp the general movement, and then they would correct it as you showed progress, gradually going into greater detail and refining the motion. If you were able to analyze what you were shown and ask intelligent questions your progress was that much faster.

My Shaolin teachers tended to be of the mindset that they would show you a move three times - if you did not grasp the general idea, they would not show it again for a while (but it was ok to pester your senior classmates)
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Andy_S on Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:06 pm

Out of curiosity:
If Bagua-Taiji was openly taught at the Central Guosho Academy to that institute's hundreds of young students, why is it being kept so secret today?

Is it:
(1) A particularly deadly art? (If so, why was it taught at the academy, or was just the form and none of the useage taught?)
(2) A rare art that is valuable simply for this rarity? (Ergo, keeping it to oneself is a piece of one-upmanship, pure and simple)
(3) An art that was not really passed down in detail by its teachers? (So students of those teachers are not confident with it, and cannot pass on the full Monty.)
(4) Other?

Miro:

I'd say go ahead and film it. Why not? Putting an art on video will satisfy curiousity and (perhaps) keep it alive. If you have a chap with a camera who is willing to film you, what have you got to lose?

You may recall that clip of the Hong Kong-based Yang master that went up on the Interweb some years ago, (courtesy of Master He Jing-han, IIRC). Apparently, the Hong Kong school was furious that this had gone public. That really made me wonder about that lineage. When all is said and done, the clip only showed their master performing a Taiji form. If a clip of a guy doing a pretty standard solo form is considered secret or "inside the door," then secrecy is being taken to nonsensical levels.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:30 pm

If Bagua-Taiji was openly taught at the Central Guosho Academy to that institute's hundreds of young students...

It wasn't. It was kept quite secret, even at the Nanjing Academy. The reason you are seeing so many links to the Academy is not because of any Nanjing Academy curriculum. It's mostly because of Wu Junshan who, FWIW, wasn't even a Taiji instructor there. He taught Bagua. My Shiye, Zhang Xiangwu, for example, was never a student there. He was a Dean. He learned from Wu Junshan not as an academy student but rather as a personal acquaintence.

(1) A particularly deadly art? (If so, why was it taught at the academy, or was just the form and none of the useage taught?)

See the previous. I'd say that is is a particular deadly art but not necessarily compared to all sorts of very fighty styles. More by way of comparison to the Yang Chengfu frame that was being taught openly. The YGF frame was significantly simplified, tons of tactical applications removed. Baguataijiquan, in contrast, had a bunch of Bagua and Xingyti stuff added in...maybe replacing some of the older Yang stuff, I dunno as I have never seen any original Yang for comparison.

(2) A rare art that is valuable simply for this rarity? (Ergo, keeping it to oneself is a piece of one-upmanship, pure and simple)

I think there's definitely some of that going on. Not sure if I'd call it "one-upsmanship" but there's certainly a lot of "family pride" or other Confucian stuff going on.

(3) An art that was not really passed down in detail by its teachers? (So students of those teachers are not confident with it, and cannot pass on the full Monty.)

Not a chance. Maybe for some of them but certainly now with Shifu.

(4) Other?

I have to wonder why it's kept so secret across branches. That's the part that is strange to me. I really understand why my own Shifu keeps it secret but he's a very old fasioned, traditional, confucian kind of guy that way. He thinks of it as a sort of a combination family heirloom and national treasure. Pearls before swine and all that.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby zrm on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:20 pm

My teacher was friends with He Fu Sheng. I was under the impression Huang Bo Nien was the originator of Bagua-Taiji although I could be wrong. I also thought it was Taiji in name only and not actually related to the Taijiquan system.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby edededed on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:42 pm

Dr. Fish: Seems that Mr. and Mrs. Zhang were quite detailed teachers, quite a rarity perhaps, but very nice! :D To learn proper body mechanics, I do think that one would have to be a genius of some kind to be able to learn it in only one go... (But as you say, pestering senior classmates seems to be alright - though I wonder how the first student managed!)

Mr. Young: It does seem that each teacher has his own way of teaching! For whatever reason, it does seem that longfist folks have a very good eye for movements and memorizing taolu, though. I also hear of some teachers teaching taolu differently each time... but perhaps it is that some teachers "surpassed" taolu and thus do not remember them exactly anymore... :)
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby bailewen on Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:06 pm

zrm wrote:My teacher was friends with He Fu Sheng. I was under the impression Huang Bo Nien was the originator of Bagua-Taiji although I could be wrong. I also thought it was Taiji in name only and not actually related to the Taijiquan system.


Most likely, the form you heard about is only related to the one we are talking about in name only. There's at least 3 or 4 completely unrelated "baguataijiquan" forms out there. "Baguataijiquan", in out line, is just a nickname that outsiders gave the form. When Mr. Zhang Xiangwu taught it to my teacher, Li Suiyin, he called it "Yang Style Old Frame 103". It's quite clearly Taijiquan. Clearly Yang based. I suspect whatever it was that Huang Bo Nien taught under that moniker is not actually related.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby zrm on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:58 am

Hmm maybe. Or more likely I just got confused. It was a short conversation I had in passing with my teacher quite a long time ago.

Forget I said anything.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Andy_S on Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:00 am

Omar:

Thanks for the informative and honest reply.

RE: THIS:
SNIP
The YGF frame was significantly simplified, tons of tactical applications removed. Baguataijiquan, in contrast, had a bunch of Bagua and Xingyti stuff added in...maybe replacing some of the older Yang stuff, I dunno as I have never seen any original Yang for comparison.
SNIP

Has anyone in the last 100(ish) years seen any "original Yang?" And if they think they have - how can they be sure?
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:23 am

Andy_S wrote:Has anyone in the last 100(ish) years seen any "original Yang?" And if they think they have - how can they be sure?

Too bad you never got to see it, eh? :-\

Oh, well, maybe next time....if there is a next time! :P
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:49 am

There are plenty of videos of Fu Zhongwen (YCF's disciple who took challenges for the family). None of them were done while he was young. Anyway, the term "original" is meaningless since all YLC's children did different things, and their students all did different things. Well, their forms do not look the same.

What's interesting is that many of these different varieties claim to be the original Yang, or at least the Yang that is closest to what YLC taught. I think some would argue that YCF was the first to offer a "standard" form, in terms of sequence and technique. So, Fu Zhongwen's form (at least from his pictures) look indistinguishable from YCF's. Ok, to me, apart from the form, it's the similarity of body type. YSC's form looks different.

Afa baguataijiquan, btw, without having seen anyone's form, it is generally the case that arts incorporating the term "taijiquan" use a Yang series. I.e., there's always a "grasp sparrow's tail," the difference is how it's done. I'd argue that any art coming out of the Nanjing academy would follow this pattern. Sun's TCC is the easy example. But, "tongbeitaijiquan" would be another. TCC already had the "shang tongbei" --though it's interesting to ask whether it was incorporated from tongbeiquan.

Anyway, I'm not sure any variant is more deadly than any other. The "TC" principle can be adapted to any art. Btw, Madame Fu taught a baguataijiquan sword form. Iinm, there is a segment with circle walking. Did you learn that one bailewen? Or, is there circle-walking in your baguataijiquan?
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Robert Young on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:38 am

Mr. Young: It does seem that each teacher has his own way of teaching! For whatever reason, it does seem that longfist folks have a very good eye for movements and memorizing taolu, though.

Well, it is from the training actually. Most of our forms are about 50 - 60 moves, and we have quite a bit of forms. Once a student has managed a handful of forms, it is easy to learn a new one. It is not just LF forms, most forms from northern systems are like that. So, it applies to most people who practice Northern systems.

I also hear of some teachers teaching taolu differently each time... but perhaps it is that some teachers "surpassed" taolu and thus do not remember them exactly anymore... :)

That is totally a mis-understanding, especially in our PM GM Wong's case. He was THE main PM master in his time.

I have mentioned this story a while ago in this forum, but I will mention it again here. There was a PM master called Lee, Kung-San in Taiwan who also came from Sang Dong province where PM originated. Master Lee had won a national champion in Spear back in China in 30's. In 50's, some people in KeeLong, a city north of Taipei where master Lee lived, learned master Lee had won a champion in China and asked him to teach PM. Master Lee basically declined and told them to ask GM Wong instead. The reason is simple, comparing to GM Wong, he was not qualified.

Chinese has a saying, 因材施教. What it means is that a teacher should teach differently to different students depending on students' ability. Good teachers are those who can improve students' CMA ability faster and to help them learn easier. Forms are created for training, not simply a copy or for performance. If forms do not help people's MA ability, they are useless. If changing a form will help a student's training, why not?

Forms in CMA are like song in music. Not everyone musician interprete a song the same, just as CMA practitioners to a form.
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Re: Madam Fu Shu Yun

Postby Robert Young on Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:52 am

Steve James wrote: Btw, Madame Fu taught a baguataijiquan sword form. Iinm, there is a segment with circle walking. Did you learn that one bailewen? Or, is there circle-walking in your baguataijiquan?


The sword forms are not baguaTaiji actually. The first one, 三合劍, was introduced by the Dean of NanJing Insitute, 朱國福. He brought in the form he learned. The second one, 三才劍, was arranged by the teachers in NaJing Institute. The second one may be based on the first one. The teachers made the form to be a 2 man sword form with 2 sections; the first section can fight with the second section. Most graduates from NanJing know the forms. The circle walking is also from the form itself, it has nothing to do with Bagua.
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