persian martial arts

[Andy_S]

Ian:

Well, I used to box and never saw (or heard of) people being spun like a top. Mind you, my boxing was in the army, so was pretty basic. As for training to get hit (and therefore, dizzy and disoriented) well...boxers actually DO get hit in sparring! I know this may be a rather revolutionary concept for some - but there you are. I am not making this up, y'know!

Shaun:

I practice Bagua myself and agree with what you say, but my training (and all the bagua training I have seen) bears little or no resemblance to spinning round a la dervish dancers (which, in fact, is a tradition in Iran).

[Ian]

Andy,

We spar and get hit as well, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Proof:



I've met people who've been in numerous potentially lethal fights (involving weapons) who still use spinning when they train. Why?

Well because it's fun to look daft.

[Andy_S]

Ian:

Nice, never seen that before. That chap looks suspiciously like Fedor....but he is not nearly as good a spinner as the Persian lads!

As for looking daft...be careful....before long, we will have you skipping through the forest, with a tra-la-la-la

[Walk the Torque]

I just don't see what it has to do with cultivating enlightenment.

Being enlightened is knowing things as they really are. Changing your perception to flow is preferrable to being caught up in feedback loops about what's going on in your environment that are fraught with all kinds of fucked up things that you tell yourself about what is going on around you that aren't really correct is

Does that make sense?

S

Yep

[Walk the Torque]

[quote="Andy_S"]I am disappointed: I had hoped to see someone getting beaned with one of those clubs. And I have to say I don't get the Dervish dancing either. Combative use/training use is....?

Come on Andy, have you never been on the recieving end of a blender/wrapping counter?

[Walk the Torque]

Andy,

We spar and get hit as well, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Proof:



I've met people who've been in numerous potentially lethal fights (involving weapons) who still use spinning when they train. Why?

Well because it's fun to look daft.

There is a qualtative difference in what these guys are training for and what Bagua trains one for. True they both are fun and look daft, but the result (may not look, but) are miles apart.

[Walk the Torque]

I-mon,

I-mon

[shawnsegler]

I practice Bagua myself and agree with what you say, but my training (and all the bagua training I have seen) bears little or no resemblance to spinning round a la dervish dancers (which, in fact, is a tradition in Iran).

You know what, I'm really just blind guessing here based on the fact that they use a similar action to get a similar result. But who knows. Any of these deep body practices are by their vary nature experiential. Truth is a pathless land and all that.

S

[shawnsegler]

Oh, and it just occurs to me another way in which the circle is the best way. It allows you to infinitely practice what you want to practice in a pretty small space. The space part not being nearly as important as the infinitely part. Anytime you practice any single action many, many, many times you are looking deep into the heart of the mystery, right?

S- just sayin

[Ian]

Andy,

We spar and get hit as well, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Proof:



I've met people who've been in numerous potentially lethal fights (involving weapons) who still use spinning when they train. Why?

Well because it's fun to look daft.

There is a qualtative difference in what these guys are training for and what Bagua trains one for. True they both are fun and look daft, but the result (may not look, but) are miles apart.

What they're doing here/what we do in RMA and what Shawn et al. are talking about are two completely different things. I agree.

Just to clarify - I wasn't saying they're the same.

And I still don't see how spinning can "cultivate" enlightenment.

[shawnsegler]

Anything can cultivate enlightenment if you just sit there and concentrate one pointedly enough.

You concentrate on one thing long enough you cut out everything else and you try to figure out that one thing...if you can figure out that one thing you can see how everything is connected (ostensibly), then you understand everything, right?

And you can circle infinitely.

S- just my latest model

[dragontigerpalm]

I'm hardpressed to find anything martial in these clips. The first just looks like an exercise class. I also don't see much benefit from what is demonstrated in Ian's clip. To throw random punches around the circumference of the circle one was spinning around seems pretty goofy. To train or test one's ability to regain equilibrium and composure after disorientation one needs a fixed target for reference.

[somatai]

really? well considering persian wrestlers are some of the best out there, i would guess that there very old and unbroken tradition of training has some very real merit to it......the spinning is a means to develop skills that are useful in martial arts, they are not applications or meant to be used martially.....it is all about developing the body, if you have the body the rest is shall we say fairly easy

[dragontigerpalm]

I'm not saying that I see no benefit to physical training but physical conditioning does not equal martial arts. My reaction would be the same if I were to click on a clip about boxing and only saw situps, pushups and jumping rope.

[I-mon]

i like seeing different training methods, and different forms of cultural expression. maybe those guys don't fight, or maybe they won't let outsiders watch them practice fighting.

i especially liked the combination of spinning and burpees, and of course the singing and pounding drums.