persian martial arts

[Ian]

I also don't see much benefit from what is demonstrated in Ian's clip. To throw random punches around the circumference of the circle one was spinning around seems pretty goofy. To train or test one's ability to regain equilibrium and composure after disorientation one needs a fixed target for reference.

Considering how Fedor Emelianenko is one of the best fighters on the planet, don't you find your comment just a little bit silly?

[Andy_S]

Walk:

RE:
Come on Andy, have you never been on the recieving end of a blender/wrapping counter?

You know, I am not sure I have - but would like to be. What is a blender/wrapping counter? 'Blender' is a nice way to describe applied Bagua though...

Derek:

ARE the Persians still great wrestlers? Have you seen any compete? Seriously, I am curious.

Ian:

Fedor is "one of the best..?"

Who is anywhere near? (I have not been watching MMA for the last six months) Has he been beaten yet?

BTW, however, stupid a training method looked I would not say it to Fedor's face....hell, I 'd be wary of telling Bruce that he looks like a big gay girlie prancing through the woods unless I was satisfied that he was on a different continent.

[dragontigerpalm]

I also don't see much benefit from what is demonstrated in Ian's clip. To throw random punches around the circumference of the circle one was spinning around seems pretty goofy. To train or test one's ability to regain equilibrium and composure after disorientation one needs a fixed target for reference.

Considering how Fedor Emelianenko is one of the best fighters on the planet, don't you find your comment just a little bit silly?

If you were to convince me that the clip shows the essential martial training that Fedor does or that this training is responsible or at least a significant contributing factor for his prowess then I would surely reconsider my opinion.

[Ian]

Ian:

Fedor is "one of the best..?"

Who is anywhere near? (I have not been watching MMA for the last six months) Has he been beaten yet?

Andy,

No doubt there are fighters deep in the heart of mainland China who could beat Fedor without breaking a sweat. Y'know - their martial arts having been developed on the battlefields and all.

I also don't see much benefit from what is demonstrated in Ian's clip. To throw random punches around the circumference of the circle one was spinning around seems pretty goofy. To train or test one's ability to regain equilibrium and composure after disorientation one needs a fixed target for reference.

Considering how Fedor Emelianenko is one of the best fighters on the planet, don't you find your comment just a little bit silly?

If you were to convince me that the clip shows the essential martial training that Fedor does or that this training is responsible or at least a significant contributing factor for his prowess then I would surely reconsider my opinion.

Would you like that as a percentage?

I've explained the theory. There's a clip of a great fighter using it in training. My teachers who've been in numerous life-or-death fights use it. How else can I convince you?

Moreover, why would I want to convince you? I'm not responsible for improving anyone's training! No offense.

edit: It's nothing personal. I just don't think you really need to be convinced, and I feel I've done enough convincing already. There are no secrets; everything's there for us to pick and choose.

[dragontigerpalm]

You don't have to convince me and I wouldn't expect your concern for my training. My comment about the training in the clip was based on the fighter in the foreground. Upon reviewing the clip and focusing on Fedor it is apparent that Fedor, unlike the other chap, is essentially reorienting himself to a fixed, though imaginary target in front. So I am able to convince myself that Fedor's approach is in line with my opinion and the other guy's approach is goofy.

[somatai]

iranian wrestlers are some of the best...they do consistently well in judo and other arts

[shawnsegler]

Yeah, they have a pretty macho culture IME.

S

[Brady]

I have fought a few iranian wrestlers in scholastic, greco, free-style as well as Judo. If I had to group them all together, I'd say they have a scary thick substance quality to them. The kind of feeling where you feel as if you push to hard or give up ground that you are in for an explosion of hurt.

And for those who don't see spinning as important, maybe necessary (to some degree), in building martial shenfa then you guys clearly aren't adept at throws.

[kreese]

Considering how Fedor Emelianenko is one of the best fighters on the planet, don't you find your comment just a little bit silly?

But is he one of the best fighters in the galaxy?


Yes, it's Friday!!! TGI-MF-F!!!

[Andy_S]

Brady:
SNIP
And for those who don't see spinning as important, maybe necessary (to some degree), in building martial shenfa then you guys clearly aren't adept at throws.
SNIP

Good point, and this says something about Bagua and, perhaps, Cheng's SC origins.

But spinning round and round solo at high speed - does this build the necessary attributes?

You do judo, and judo, more than most throwing arts, used throws where you turn (OK, spin) into your opponent and lift/throw using the hip or shoulder as the fulcrum. But I have never seen this kind of training in Judo.

[canard]

But spinning round and round solo at high speed - does this build the necessary attributes?

Andy, not an attack on you per se, but your sentiments seems to sum up a lot of people's thoughts......
....considering the crazy things IMA has us do in the name of martial (or spiritual) efficacy - like waving our hands real sloooooooow or contemplating our navel, it really shouldn't be that difficult for us to give the benefit of the doubt to training methods we don't know.

but, it's pretty simple to find out - add it to your daily training for 6 months and test it out. see what result it has on you. worst case scenario, you get a bit dizzy and probably increase your cardio for 6 months.

[Andy_S]

Canard:

No offense taken.

But speaking seriously, I have never seen this training before. It is not clear from the clip posted whether it is meant to have a martial attribute, or is a cultural add-on to the art.

While many systems have some circling and even spinning training, the idea of dervish dancing as a builder of useful martial attributes is, IMHO, extremely peripheral, if not totally outre.

As for trying it out - fair comment! But as it is, I don't have enough time daily to work on the things I know I HAVE TO work on, so as for adding a new practice to my regimen...thanks, but no thanks.

However, I am open to listening to the experiences of anyone else who does it as shown and can verifty its benefits (Derek/ Somatai, are you out there?). Hence my participation in this thread, and more generally, this forum.

[Brady]

One of the drills we do in Judo is very similar . . . albiet its more of a group training method. You have one person doing the training and a line of people running at him, he chooses a side to swing open and does a 360. When it gets moving quickly it looks like the guy is doing piroettes (Sp?) while people are lunatically running at him.

It helped my game alot to work with various abstractions of spinning. By overemphasizing and making the circle much bigger I gained a deeper understanding of the smaller circles/spirals in my body and throws. Not for everyone, and certainly looks goofy--but these have been my experiences.

[Andy_S]

Brady:

Not THAT sounds like a good drill.