Baji and Chen Comparison

[Bob]

This is a sincere inquiry [no setups]. Below is a clip which as been posted. Damon Hwang is playing Liu Yun Qiao's abstracted version of Chen's taijiquan at 2:06. I would like to hear [constructivley] what one might believe is lacking in the abstraction. Does this have too much baji flavor? Too little Chen flavor? Too fast? Poor Chen shen fa? Poor fajing or too much like baji? What might one suggest in order to improve the flavor of the abstracted Chen form?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHiRqDjT ... f=6&t=1938





A demo of the 3rd level abstraction [at least as how I know it] is also found in the movie clip-- at the 3:25 mark---I once had a clip of a young Feng Zhiqiang start the Chen form with a front snap kick and wonder if this was simply his personalization. Same questions: I would like to hear [constructivley] what one might believe is lacking in the abstraction. Does this have too much baji flavor? Too little Chen flavor? Too fast? Poor Chen shen fa? Poor fajing or too much like baji? What might one suggest in order to improve the flavor of the abstracted Chen form?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q41iBuQ ... f=6&t=2004





I am just trying to sort out and think through what Liu must have seen in Chen Fake's 1929 performance.

[Little Bai]

Hm... to me it seems like there is no Chen shenfa at all (at least as I know it). I don't mean to belittle the performances or the training method - it may all be worthwile for what I know. But it is too different, too far removed from the Chen I'm accustomed to to make any 'adjustments'. It sort of looks like a mixture of Yang-style (in terms of flavour of movement) and Changquan (in terms of postures). The Baji influence is most obvious in the fajin movements IMO.
Reminds me of the story about Ma Yueliang and one of his students, who after studying for several years on his own returns to Ma to get corrections. When he performed, Ma saw so many errors (should I say 'deviations'?) in his student's form that he wouldn't know where to start correcting him. He just told him to sit down and watch Ma performing. Afterwards the student was completely puzzled and asked Ma why he had changed the form so much...
I don't know what Liu saw in Chen Fake's performance that made him relate his martial art to Bajiquan so strongly. I doubt it was the postures or movements per so, though. More like certain types of force and the extensive use of fajin. I think Lü Baocun is a good example of how the two martial arts 'could' merge in a practioner's body. But I have no idea wether his Baji is considered orthodox (anymore) or not.

[lindun]

You ask me most of Wutang martial arts has alot of Baji influence into their styles.

[Bob]

Hm... to me it seems like there is no Chen shenfa at all (at least as I know it). I don't mean to belittle the performances or the training method - it may all be worthwile for what I know. But it is too different, too far removed from the Chen I'm accustomed to to make any 'adjustments'. It sort of looks like a mixture of Yang-style (in terms of flavour of movement) and Changquan (in terms of postures). The Baji influence is most obvious in the fajin movements IMO.
Reminds me of the story about Ma Yueliang and one of his students, who after studying for several years on his own returns to Ma to get corrections. When he performed, Ma saw so many errors (should I say 'deviations'?) in his student's form that he wouldn't know where to start correcting him. He just told him to sit down and watch Ma performing. Afterwards the student was completely puzzled and asked Ma why he had changed the form so much...
I don't know what Liu saw in Chen Fake's performance that made him relate his martial art to Bajiquan so strongly. I doubt it was the postures or movements per so, though. More like certain types of force and the extensive use of fajin. I think Lü Baocun is a good example of how the two martial arts 'could' merge in a practioner's body. But I have no idea wether his Baji is considered orthodox (anymore) or not.

I appreciate your honesty so no offensive is ever taken on such comments. I kind of agree that the frames look more like a blend of Yang style and long fist but I often think the tempo is too fast--however, I also think that in the spectrum of Chen material I have looked since about 1988, there are variatons in Chen's systems that seem also to go this route. I also think some of the flavor in the second clip touches on a bit of the zhaobao/xiao jia/hu lei jia flavor without explicit use of circles. If you look carefully, a lot of the shen fa expresses a much tighter frame of chan si jin which I suspect leaks over from baji jibengong.

I would be hesitant to conclude that everything wu tan touches comes out with a clear baji flavor. I have seen some people comment on Liu's bagua and claim to see baji influence [maybe mi zong] which leads me to conclude a lot of people don't quite know what baji flavor really looks like. LOL even among the various branches of baji the flavor is quite diverse.

Again, thanks for the constructive observations!

[SPJ]

This is a great topic.

I will share some of my "observations".

Let us broaden the topic to general understanding of the 2 styles and then compare them.

1. My CMA learning started with learning moves/techniques and how to use them, just like everyone else.

So my persuits were to learn more techniques, more complexed, the better. Mantis would satisfy a lot of people in this sense.

2. After a while, I started to notice the questions of using them "effectively", meaning entry strategy, and finish strategy (as JW put them). So I started to focus on tactics and strategy more than collecting more "fancy" moves/techniques. Soon enough I noticed that, the simpler or more straight forward moves/techniques have higher success rate or much easier to pull off, or the tactics and strategy are more manageable or easier to do.

May be I just like to keep it simple anyway. So I asked for lessons for simpler or straightforward styles, then Tong Bei and Ba Ji were introduced to me. I fell in love with them right away.

So when I first saw Ba Ji demo, I loved it right away. Not because of the power or stomping feet, but because of the tactics and strategy for entry and finishing are apparent and easy to understand or follow meaning also higher success rate to pull off.

When I started Tai Chi, I really dun like it. I had to relearn everything. A lot of standing postures and turning circles etc. The tactics and strategy are way more complexed or a lot more difficult to pull off.

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[SPJ]

Just to mention a few things for both styles.

1. Tactics and strategy

a. Ba Ji stresses 2 things. 1. move the body close and release the power at short distance or she shen jin fa. and 2. continuous strikes at 3 levels or san pan lian ji.

Most people only think that ba ji is about stomping hard and striking hard, so if you are not doing both, then you are not doing ba ji. Actually, there are also many other practices or drills beyond stomping feet hard. True, stomping feet are important part of the practice, but there are more.

In order to achieve 1, we have to practice opening the door and moving in fast. We also have to practice inch power including kao, how to generate the power at close body distance.

So we confine the opponent's arm where it is and move in fast. inch intercept, inch grappling, inch moving in and out etc. So in general, chan si and other restraining methods are small or not apparent, and what you see is that the practitioner moving in and doing the strikes or throws at the 3 levels.

b. Tai Chi stresses neutralization or hua jin, such as peng lu ji an are all neutralization methods. People would see these are the big part or mostly, however, they are followed with strikes, qin na and throws, too.

In order to use the opponent's force to defeat himself, so that no matter how strong the opponent is, we have a way to deal with a bigger and stronger force, we have to contact, merge/yield and control/redirect the opponent's force etc.

--

[SPJ]

2. Body methods and power generation:

For the most part, at least in the classics and theory, they are almost the same, but with different focuses.

a. Ba Ji talks about the explosive power from dan tian toward the 4 limbs, again stomping feet is only part of the picture. depending the postures, stomping feet may be the start or end of the power issuing.

b. Tai Chi talks about chan si rotation starting from dan tian, intent/will guarding or centering on dan tian or yi shou dan tian. The body moving the arms, the power stored at the waist and then released, thus the name of tai chi waist/yao.

The truth is that chen tai chi also has stomping feet not only single but also double feet stomping, too. In Yang tai chi, some old forms also have stomping feet, too.

In general, Ba Ji talks about the expression of the power all over the body suddenly. so fist and feet, elbow and knee would have the same level of power expressed at the same time. So in stomping feet practice, you focus on practicing downward sinking power, true. But if all of your power are on the feet only, then this may not be correct.

In general, Tai Chi talks about Chan Si. If you do not have some kind of chan si, in your move or powers, then it may not be correct.

In short, Ba Ji focuses on explosive power/qi from dan tian.

Tai Chi focuses on chan si rotated out of dan tian.

--

[SPJ]

Again, this is a great topic.

But a few words may not be enough to explain them all.

--

[Bob]

Thanks SPJ!

Reminds me of some of the things you said in one of your early books [its at my office and I am at home]. Good book!

[count]

Wu Tan's Chen "fajing" is baji "fajing". Maybe it's not pure, but it's valid if you think about it.

[Frank Bellemare]

Hi Bob,

From my reference point (xinjia yilu) there's about three quarters of the transitions missing, which have a lot to do with how Chen style looks and feels. However, this is an abstraction so I shouldn't be expecting the horribly complex movements of Chen Zhaokui's form. On the one hand, a lot of the complex qinna movements are lost because of this, but on the other hand, the form is much simpler and probably more easily applicable to combat.

I wouldn't expect thundering results in push hands by training the form this way, but then I doubt that a pragmatic man like master Liu cared about pushing hands the way today's taiji players do. Since you Wutan guys are a lot into baji, I'd speculate that this form was perhaps designed to allow you to keep your baji basics while making your movements larger and rounder and introducing more obvious chansijing (still not all that obvious though!). What do you think Bob? Where does this form fit in your curriculum?

[Bob]

Frank:

Yeah, the bias in baji, is of course, striking and indeed I think that is reflected in the movements of the abstractions which were based on a young Liu's exchange with Chen Fake. However, I am trying to put myself in the mindset of a 20 year old, 1970 or so, hearing about the "invincibility of baji", and told to learn 3 Chen abstractions along with Yang's taijiquan and tai zu quan [played as slow as Yang's taijiquan].

I think Liu was grounded enough to differentiate the flavors among these systems but I suspect a young student full of baji dreams wants to find baji in everything.

In one sense, historically speaking, I would love to have known how Liu felt about Chen Fake's methods and how he felt they were similar to his own training in bajiquan.

[waterdaan]

hi SPJ

continuous strikes at 3 levels or san pan lian ji.

do you mean continuous, as in fist then elbow, followed by a shoulder strike???

[Frank Bellemare]

I am trying to put myself in the mindset of a 20 year old, 1970 or so, hearing about the "invincibility of baji", and told to learn 3 Chen abstractions along with Yang's taijiquan and tai zu quan

As I recall, Adam Hsu had a similar experience when he started learning from Liu. He wanted baji power, but he was forced to learn pigua quan first.

Personally, I started martial arts with a northern long fist-type style. I really enjoyed it, but I never understood how to move properly and keep my body aligned while staying relaxed and aware until I started Yang taijiquan under a good teacher a few years later. Now I'm starting to learn xingyi and bagua and with the background I have in Yang and Chen style (but mostly Yang... I still don't really get Chen style) I am learning much faster than people without taiji experience. Could that be part of the rationale behind Liu's teaching those "slow styles" to your teacher? Relaxation, self-awareness and control over the body are pretty useful in any martial arts, and I know of no art who trains those better than taijiquan.

[SPJ]

hi SPJ

continuous strikes at 3 levels or san pan lian ji.

do you mean continuous, as in fist then elbow, followed by a shoulder strike???

Yes.

There are several levels of considerations.

1. We may use the hand and foot at the same time. We may use the elbow and knee at the same time, and also the shoulder and hip at the same time.

For example, if the opponent did a high punch, you may gua or intercept with one hand/arm, and use the other hand to do a mid punch and the foot to do a low kick. So the opponent doing high punch opens his door, we move in fast at 3 levels and do mid and low level strike at the same time.

2. Left, right, up down, forward and backward are 3 "directions". We may utilize continuously.

For example, if the opponent doing a mid punch, we push his arm down, at the same time, we use other hand to do upward wrist strike to his chin. if the opponent intercepts our wrist strike, we may use the other hand to do another wrist strike etc.

or elbow strike when the wrist strike was intercepted.

---

as pointed out by you.

the hand/wrist, elbow and shoulder are considered 3 passes or guards, san guan.

when we fight, we always have to consider how to pass these 3 guards etc.