practical tai chi (drills)

[CaliG]

Thanks for posting that it's nice to finally see a little bit of how Dan Docherty students roll.

[Andy_S]

RE: Dan D/Cheng Tin-hung Taiji vs other Wu Taiji
IIRC, Cheng TH learend neigong and some apps from the mysterious Qi Min-xuan. Also IIRC, the "running thunder" punches (shown in this clip) were unique to Qi. Certainly, we don't have them in Chen style. Do other Taiij peeps have this kind of rolling double punch (basic is a kind of backfist followed by a hook with the other hand) in their curricula?

OTOH, some of the single whip apps shown here (ie wrapping the head from behind) look very similar to what is done by other Wu lineages (and which I have nicked for my own practice).

[GrahamB]

RE: Dan D/Cheng Tin-hung Taiji vs other Wu Taiji
IIRC, Cheng TH learend neigong and some apps from the mysterious Qi Min-xuan. Also IIRC, the "running thunder" punches (shown in this clip) were unique to Qi. Certainly, we don't have them in Chen style. Do other Taiij peeps have this kind of rolling double punch (basic is a kind of backfist followed by a hook with the other hand) in their curricula?

Not in Tai Chi, but we have them in Choy Lee Fut - done exactly like that. And there's pretty much the same thing (with more stepping emphasis) found in Hebei XingYi Bear. I dare say you'd also seem them in your average bar fight too. Effective, and not difficult to do.

[cdobe]

Does his material really all come from Mr. Docherty ? My impression is that there are elements that come from another Wu style teacher from the UK. In that case credit should be given.

You fabulously big lineage queen.

Not sure what you mean cdobe, would be interesting to see the differences between what CTH practiced including apps and techniques, such as flying flower palm 飛花掌 and what his uncle Cheng Wing Kwong and the Wu´s in Hong Kong originally practiced which could be down to what CTH learnt from Qi Min-xuan. Cheng Tin-hung first learned Tai Chi Chuan from his uncle, Cheng Wing-kwong, who was one of only three "inside the door" students of Wu Jian-chuan in Hong Kong. His uncle taught widely in South East Asia, particularly in Malaysia. However, Chen Wing-kwong later brought Qi Min-xuan from Henan Province to teach his sons and nephews. Later CWK asked CTH to correct him on various applications and techniques he had learnt from QMX, including some of the missing yin yang 24 nei gong.
As far as the UK goes props to Ian Cameron, Dans older Tai Chi brother for helping to spread the art from Hong Kong but as far as the apps and techniques demonstrated here the lineage question is straight foward, well at least to me, no elements from Wu style teacher in the UK. Neil a student of Dan Docherty who learnt from Cheng Tin Hung.

Kinkong,
first of all I do not believe that QMX even existed. Cheng Wingkwong's other disciples haven't heard of him and Cheng Tinhung needed this person to break with the Wu family. But I don't want to go into that and start a new discussion. Just letting you know what I personally think of it.
The reason I asked my original question is, that some of the applications obviously come from a different source, that should be acknowledged. The single whip application Andy talks about comes from a neigong exercise that Dan Docherty doesn't have. I'ld really like to hear from Cloudz or other people of that group about it.

CD

[middleway]

quick question ... why does it matter?

the idea that every technique you learn and then use in the future should then be quoted as from a certain source is a bit silly IMO. You move how you move and do what you do based on your certain experience ...

I learnt Daito Ryu alot and alot of what i do comes from that experience ... I also learnt CIMA's and have been to some seminars n stuff. My teacher from Daito Ryu knows that he taught me and that what i do now probably still has some of his teachings in it ... he doesn't need me to confirm this every time i do something a certain way or do a particular wrist lock ...

course .. this is just my opinion.

Cheers
Chris

[GrahamB]

Because politics matter a lot in Tai Chi, especially Wu style it seems

[middleway]

ahhhhhhh .... fine ... i will go back to training then ...

[cloudz]

The single whip application Andy talks about comes from a neigong exercise that Dan Docherty doesn't have. I'ld really like to hear from Cloudz or other people of that group about it.

CD

Hi CD,

.. I think Neil may have picked that one up off of the internet!?

[king-kong]

Refreshingly honest!!!!

[CaliG]

It's nice to see another taiji fighting school.

Do people know of other schools that train this way?

I'm curious because someday I'd like to have my own school and teach in this way but I don't know if anyone is going to show up. It seems that people want to hear about form after form or chi.

[Andy_S]

CDobe:

Eh? Why does a cloud hand app come from a neigong movement? An app is just one's against-opponent use of a form movement; something that originates, ideally, from sound teaching, but is only limited only by imagination, common sense and viability. I don't follow your logic here.

Graham:

Right, Dan showed it to me years ago, noting that this was in his Taiji curriculum but not in others; I suppose that given his system grew up around Hong Kong, it may well have originated from some kind of nanquan. As you say, not that difficult, to do - my adoption of it (I pinched this form a Korean MA, Hoijin Moosool - "Revolving MA") is to do it with a back swivel step, so striking him with the double hit as you step back and around. Nothing new under the sun, but Roziak's entries and adaptions of it were sweet.

[cdobe]

@Cloudz
Thanks for your reply.

CDobe:

Eh? Why does a cloud hand app come from a neigong movement? An app is just one's against-opponent use of a form movement; something that originates, ideally, from sound teaching, but is only limited only by imagination, common sense and viability. I don't follow your logic here.

It's not a cloud hand app, but is directly derived from a neigong movement. You won't find this move in any form, although it is associated with the Single Whip. The power of the technique is specifically developed in the neigong exercise.
I'm pretty confident to know where exactly the move comes from.

[Bob]

I don't think many of these drills and applications are unique to taiji. Some of them can be found in various levels of 7 star praying mantis and other mantis systems. The thunderhand drill is similar to an application found in the bagua leg we practice. Strike with the fist, the follow with the elbow and as you fold you then tuck and use the elbow to strike the heart area--there is also a similar application found in praying mantis.

Do applications make the system or is it the training in the system that gives the applications an edge not found in other systems?

Here is a fun example. Take the Grasping the Bird's tail Drill at the .56 mark. You can see one of many possible counters in the clip below. The student is trying to use a similar defensive move as grasping the bird's tail and you can see how Tony Yang works past it [this is found at the 2:00 mark in the clip below]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OUQzKndA00

[tangocat]

@Cloudz
Thanks for your reply.

CDobe:

Eh? Why does a cloud hand app come from a neigong movement? An app is just one's against-opponent use of a form movement; something that originates, ideally, from sound teaching, but is only limited only by imagination, common sense and viability. I don't follow your logic here.

It's not a cloud hand app, but is directly derived from a neigong movement. You won't find this move in any form, although it is associated with the Single Whip. The power of the technique is specifically developed in the neigong exercise.
I'm pretty confident to know where exactly the move comes from.

I'm not absolutely sure if we're talking about the same bit, but isn't this just applying da lu to the counter?

[tangocat]

Does his material really all come from Mr. Docherty ? My impression is that there are elements that come from another Wu style teacher from the UK. In that case credit should be given.

Which teacher?



(and is he cheaper than Mr Docherty?)