Baguazhang whipping soft striking

[D_Glenn]

Some 撻 Ta (Whipping) Attack methods from the Li Trigram System, interesting effect from the relaxed soft strikes --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFAYUFJcUm0



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[middleway]

cool!

[Rabbit]

Very Cool

[wuwei sifu]

i've done it for years, but didn't know it was in/a part of an established style. i stated doing it immediately after i saw a dude use a fingertip strike many moons ago. i like how you can see this guy apply his breaking force in his strikes.

[Walk the Torque]

This is something taught in tai chi which I have coined liquid metal. With it, it is possible to be simultaneously fluid yet solid. This is great for trapping/striking combos.

[middleway]

Was also have this stuff in the practices I have encoutered.I think this sort of work is common to a lot of IMA styles, I know Ziranmen has some similar ideas all be it with a different sort of engine.

[Walk the Torque]

Interesting......could you describe the engines Chris?

[RobP2]

One thing I don't understand - hitting to the head with the back of an open hand?

[middleway]

Interesting......could you describe the engines Chris?

Well as i dont practice Yin Style or Ziranmen I dont think i could do that justice! haha.

But just from my experience of the two teachers i have encountered from these styles.The experience of this idea from a Yin Style Teacher, was 'sharp' and sticky for want of a better term. The body of said teacher was like a tightly coiled spring.

From the Ziranmen teacher, although the hand method was similar, The feeling was 'heavy' and smothering. The body of this teacher was super soft but dense and 'heavy' in contact.

Perhaps the engine was ultimately the same, but the expression of the engine was different, I am not sure. The two styles basic training seemed to differ dramatically too however.

thanks.

[middleway]

One thing I don't understand - hitting to the head with the back of an open hand?

There is some utility to this if its trained. Serge Augier hit me on the head (boney part) with this once and it really dazed the hell out of me. Still not quite sure how he did it haha.

[Bao]

The two styles basic training seemed to differ dramatically too however.

Basic training and the overall understanding and philosophy of shenfa should really be the key to differences. But also the mechanics of relaxed whipping method can differ radically. Does the engine use more foot and weight shifting (maybe more in tai chi), more waist movement (maybe more in bagua) or vertical spinal wave movement (maybe more in xingyi)? Is a heavier or more snappy power preferred? Where's the point of acceleration, in the beginning or in the end?

One thing I don't understand - hitting to the head with the back of an open hand?

I don't understand the concern. The back of the hand is the back of the hand, regardless if it has the shape of a backfist or a an open hand. It's the same striking area.

[D_Glenn]

One thing I don't understand - hitting to the head with the back of an open hand?

There is some utility to this if its trained. Serge Augier hit me on the head (boney part) with this once and it really dazed the hell out of me. Still not quite sure how he did it haha.

That's the effect I was talking about. (I've been on the receiving end of these from the teacher in the video, so maybe I'm seeing something that isn't apparent to other people who haven't felt the same? But Middleway gets it.)

Bao brought up the backfist which is the perfect opposite of this. We use the big knuckle of the middle finger to 'Point Smash' (dian za) when using a backfist, this can hit specific points, but doesn't really aim for them, as it's more about focusing the smashing into a single point. One of the areas to hit is the back of the opponent's hand, as there's a point in between the 4th and 5th metacarpal, but landing the point of the knuckle on, or in between any of the metacarpals will get the effect desired.

So of using a point to hit the back of the hand is effective; where using the point of the backfist to hit the bony flat forehead of the opponent is not really effective. Where then a wide surface like the whole open hand is more effective for areas like the skull. We use the palm of the hand a lot but using the back of the hand has an entirely different effect as the whole arm is now rotated around and the angle or arc of the attack can come from a different direction then an open palm and there's something about hitting with the outside of the arm, etc.

But there is, as in all things IMA, some Foundation that needs to be built before you can safely use certain attacking methods. All our Zhan Zhuang and Xing Zhuang are a {Within Stillness there is Moving} exercise that promotes [Bone] 'Marrow Washing Process' (洗髓经 Xi Sui Jing) but there's also a specific posture to develop the 撻 Ta (Whipping) Attack.

洗髓经 Xi Sui Jing is in a lot of CMA but for some reason these exercises that specifically address this are typically taken for granted. In our Baguazhang it's a lifelong Process (经) or an Undertaking rather, as it's like an oath or promise that you have to make to yourself to practice everyday. And without this Life-long Undertaking (经 Jing) then using the back of your open palm to hit someone's skull just won't be in your arsenal of tools to use. But it's a crazy tool to have and use as the Effect is...


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[roger hao]

Isn't that a Flick?

[zrm]

There is some utility to this if its trained. Serge Augier hit me on the head (boney part) with this once and it really dazed the hell out of me. Still not quite sure how he did it haha.

洗髓经 Xi Sui Jing is in a lot of CMA but for some reason these exercises that specifically address this are typically taken for granted. In our Baguazhang it's a lifelong Process (经) or an Undertaking rather, as it's like an oath or promise that you have to make to yourself to practice everyday.

In the "Da Xuan" video Serge speaks of his training with the Mother and Son ball, which essentially amounts to gently slapping, grabbing, chopping and knocking on a large iron ball everyday. It's one of the major methods used to train this skill in Ziranmen.

The tactics shown original post also looks a lot like how I was taught Liu He Tang Lang. which coincidentally also uses an iron ball for conditioning grip power.

As for "engines", my Liu He Tang Lang teacher would often grip your arm and yank you completely off balance, setting up a following strike. My Zi Ran Men teacher on the other hand would use more circular type movement to deflect allowing him reuse the momentum in the following movement. I think it's probably more to do with the personal preferences of the teacher than an inherent part of the style though.

[Bao]

I think it's probably more to do with the personal preferences of the teacher than an inherent part of the style though.

the quality and feeling of the movements has really everything with the style and lineage to do. The lineage of the teacher you see in the OP has a very strict jibengong practice. The power is developed from developing the core, the stance work, root, footwork and developing spinal movement. This kind of basic, foundation practice is not always practiced in CMA today. But it has everything to do with the quality of the techniques and how the power will be felt. A personal preference or practicing a certain technique can not compensate for the lack of many years of foundation work.