Hey all,
Here's a pretty crappy Horse Shape from our 12 Animals set.
I haven't pulled the form out in a while, so when I got to the turn, I think I tripped on my shoelace, split my pants, and fell down, requiring a root canal, or something, so I've only left the first line intact. Smiley
I've also got the vectors a bit wrong, it should be more flat and less up-on-the-front down-on-the-back, if you catch my drift.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:01am
Our Standard Horse
Variation
I noticed I did a weird step shifting at 0.10...strange
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:51am
ooh very nice. our standard horse is actually two punches flat. our first variation is your "standard". of course it's the same circle in the beginning. it's a great punch on the inside.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 10:54am
We have 3 more horse forms, and 2 or 3 horse sequences in the family forms. If this convo gets good we'll probably film some more...the weather has fucked things up for us a few times now
Posted by: kenneth_fish Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 1:54pm
Not a thoroughbred, but very attractive - what is its bloodline?
Posted by: Mike_Strong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 3:08pm
I wish I could show you a clipof Kenny Gong doing his Shing Yi Horse, ...
...awesome !
I never learned it, but i copied it in my mind and practice my own "variavtion" of if it from time to time:
There is sycopated stepping pattern that kind of backs up, and the hands make fast circles, ( like a horse rearing up and flaling it's hooves).
Good Stuff Guys - Keep It Coming !
Mike " ain't got no camera " Strong
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 3:55pm
on May 6th, 2008, 3:08pm, Mike_Strong wrote:
There is sycopated stepping pattern that kind of backs up, and the hands make fast circles, ( like a horse rearing up and flaling it's hooves).
In one of our family forms there's a Horse movement where you step to the side, putting your weight in one leg, while you make fast circles with the hands, hitting your shoulders with your palms. It's called Wild Horse.
..my teacher seriously slapped the shit out of me when I asked for an application Cheesy
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 4:03pm
mike, our horse form sounds a little like that. our "standard" pattern, the two fists are synchronous in phase, so they draw the same circle. you rear up and then stamp down.
our variation that looks like felipe's standard, we do too, and it looks even more like a horse rearing up--the fists appearl slightly syncopated because the top hand becomes the next punch's bottom hand, but they punch out at the same time. damn i haven't practiced that in a while. I'll brush some rust off it and see if I can do one for a vid. my teacher said I did that the best of all my animals.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 5:05pm
Wow, Felipe - like how many family forms are there, anyway? Sounds like you have a lot of variations of the animals in there - maybe 5+ for each? (That would make a lot of animals... heh, heh)
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 6:43pm
he's siegfried to jose's roy Grin
Posted by: Brick hit house Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 8:31pm
This is the one I started to learn a long time ago:
- Nianfong is that similar to the form you're talking about? Also what style/ line do you practice if I may ask?
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 8:47pm
on May 6th, 2008, 6:43pm, nianfong wrote:
he's siegfried to jose's roy Grin
LOL..dude...lol
Ed, we have plenty of concepts (I won't say forms, because some variations are just the same form applied in a different angle, or modified according to the teacher's preferences).
I bet the conversation went like this:
"Well, I have the Dragon Form taught by my teacher, but I'm kinda heavy, so, I'll make a variation where I don't have to jump, but I can use a stomp instead. It worked well against that loudmouth at the bar"...and a new form was born.
When it comes to family forms, each branch has more than 10. I know you remember the Eight Tiger forms of Huang Bonian...and I know of an EF forum member that has one Monkey form for each of the elements (Splitting Monkey, Drilling Monkey, etc).
In the end, knowing a lot of forms won't make you a better student or fighter, but you have plenty of variations to see and principles to adapt to your own game, inside your own style. In my case, I think I know 98% of my teacher's curriculum, but I only use about 2%... that's what works for me.
Regarding the Horse forms, I only use 2 of them in sparring. Those two are the ones best suited for my body type and skill. One of those is the Standard form I posted up there (I use it as a jab, most of the time) and the 3rd variation, which I hope to post soon.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 9:13pm
More than family 10 forms... wow, that's a lot! Forms as in sets, right? Can't say I know what exactly would be the family forms in my branch(es)... if there are any...
Regarding Huang Bonian's 8 tiger forms, are these 8 tiger sets (long forms) or just 8 variations of the tiger form (xing)?
98% - ha ha, you've learned almost everything then Wink But yeah, knowing more doesn't make you better, but it is nice to see the variations and such.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 6th, 2008, 11:34pm
Bonjour!
Medieval horse form:
Dominica Republic Horse form finals:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ktYMkxD0Fzc
That's José out in front.
Posted by: Jose Alb Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 6:22am
Graham, if you really wanna be funny, why not post your Ma Xing? That would bring the house down.
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 6:46am
Neeeeeiiggh lad! Grin
Wot iz this Mar Zing you talk of? I 'av never 'eard of eet.
(b.t.w. I 'av found your island on my map Monsieur. Sadly it is too far to attempt a rescue.)
Posted by: Dmitri Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 6:53am
G, it's not OTT ya know... Someone started a serious thread and then charles and you started "horsing around" in it...
Warm regards,
Jes Sayan Tongue
Posted by: GrahamBonaparte Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 7:11am
My apologies Monsieur, I saw zee Horse picture and I thought a game was, how you say?, afoot!
Posted by: charles Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 7:53am
on May 7th, 2008, 6:53am, Dmitri wrote:
G, it's not OTT ya know... Someone started a serious thread and then charles and you started "horsing around" in it...
My apologies. Given the title of the thread, I couldn't resist. Carry on...
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 9:42am
Thinking about the pulling hands in the Horse form: Apart from the obvious applications, has anyone used them to wrap an arm and strike with the other?.
I have never tried it...I'll have to
Posted by: JAB Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 10:02am
Yup, that is one of the main apps to the version I learned from Tim. But our horse looks a bit different. Also you can "rap" (as in a knocking fashion) on the back of your opponents hands which is extremely painful - distracting. Tim said he used this a lot fighting in Asia to great sucess!
Jake Smiley
Posted by: Buddy Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 1:39pm
One version of Yizong horse is a looping overhand.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 1:42pm
on May 7th, 2008, 10:02am, JAB wrote:
Also you can "rap" (as in a knocking fashion) on the back of your opponents hands which is extremely painful - distracting. Tim said he used this a lot fighting in Asia to great sucess!
Jake Smiley
Our 5th version of horse is a 'rap' as you say, with the front knuckles. The back of the hands and the bridge of the nose are favorite targets
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 1:59pm
on May 6th, 2008, 9:13pm, Uatu the Watcher the Ed wrote:
Regarding Huang Bonian's 8 tiger forms, are these 8 tiger sets (long forms) or just 8 variations of the tiger form (xing)?
Ed, they're 8 variations of Tiger. Brian Kennedy wrote an article about it a while ago.
Posted by: JAB Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 2:46pm
Where is the article to be found?
Felipe - I also like to use it at the bone just over the eye. Perfect way to cut someone and get them bleeding into their eyes!
Thanks
Jake
Posted by: Mike_Strong Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 3:21pm
Felipe ,
I never learned the Horse Form for reals, but I practiced on the sly anyway ...
... once at Kumar's we were practicing simple Beng Quan apps; ...
... guy punches at my head - the first horsey hoof sucked him down and in - the second horsey hoof arrived at his face at the same time as the same side foot stomped ...
... the combination of him being sucked in and down + my fist/foot/whole body moving toward him = KaPow !
Is Horse Beng Quan related ?
I think it must be.
... but yeah, arm wraps that suck the attacker down/in seem to be a natural expression of Ma Xing
Posted by: taoistfist Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 5:54pm
nice to see the different horses. i'll try to put one or two up in the next day or two.
landon
Posted by: taoistfist Posted on: May 7th, 2008, 5:55pm
nice to see the different horses. i'll try to put one or two up in the next day or two.
landon
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 12:24am
mike, all the animals are pretty much derivatives of the 5 elements, plus some animal "intent" and expression. I tend to think of it as an inverted pi quan circle, combined with beng and heng.
Posted by: Mike_Strong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 12:55am
Yeah, the Vertical Circles are totally Pi Quan.
Posted by: Bao Has Risen from the Grave Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 3:43am
I am just a XY-enthusiast, not a good player. But the horse is my favourite animal for the moment, so it is really nice to see some variations. In the regular one I practice, the both fists punch at the same time, similar to the tiger. The "idea" includes "close in" into the opponent keeping the arms close to the body while using the forearms to block and roll over the opponents arms. Hard to describe, but I guess a xy-practitioner understand what I mean. It looks very close to western boxing when you use the methods.
[quote author=nianfong link=board=video_links;num=1210089725;start=15#29 date=05/08/08 at 00:24:18 I tend to think of it as an inverted pi quan circle, combined with beng and heng. [/quote]
I guess every move should be "san ti"/liu he coordinated. But some moves demand different kind of strength or utilize the body parts different to issue strength. The horse and tiger use a more clear and strong movement from the upper body, focusing on shoulder move and vertical spinal wave. Heng focus on horisontal force and turning waist. In this respect, pi and heng are opposites. From my own pov, I want to keep these movements clearly separated when practice, so I can not really see how heng blends into a basic or common horse move.
Posted by: For Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 4:50am
on May 6th, 2008, 8:47pm, Felipe_Bido wrote:
LOL..dude...lol
Ed, we have plenty of concepts (I won't say forms, because some variations are just the same form applied in a different angle, or modified according to the teacher's preferences).
I bet the conversation went like this:
"Well, I have the Dragon Form taught by my teacher, but I'm kinda heavy, so, I'll make a variation where I don't have to jump, but I can use a stomp instead. It worked well against that loudmouth at the bar"...and a new form was born.
When it comes to family forms, each branch has more than 10. I know you remember the Eight Tiger forms of Huang Bonian...and I know of an EF forum member that has one Monkey form for each of the elements (Splitting Monkey, Drilling Monkey, etc).
In the end, knowing a lot of forms won't make you a better student or fighter, but you have plenty of variations to see and principles to adapt to your own game, inside your own style. In my case, I think I know 98% of my teacher's curriculum, but I only use about 2%... that's what works for me.
Regarding the Horse forms, I only use 2 of them in sparring. Those two are the ones best suited for my body type and skill. One of those is the Standard form I posted up there (I use it as a jab, most of the time) and the 3rd variation, which I hope to post soon.
Yea, see you do one similar to the way I do mine. The thing is I noticed the chicken you do allot different in your system of hsingyi. Where and whom do you study from?
The school i studied at was Dr. Fred Weaver, the system is from Hung Yi Hsing. Fred got me started and taught me that what happens is each person kinda chooses the area he likes and starts developing the methods of that. What I always noticed was that allot of people will base there thinking on like the Swallow or the Chicken and do the other forms of the animals/elements off it. That is interesting thing about hsingyi.
Posted by: gary Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 10:21am
My horse
Posted by: mix Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:17am
on May 8th, 2008, 10:21am, gary wrote:
My horse
A little late in the day, but still a good effort
Posted by: nianfong Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 11:35am
bao,
the heng element is from the footwork, and entering at an angle--this creates the horizontal twisting you mentioned. when you use horse on the inside gate, you are guiding your opponent's hands outside of your gate with both your "block" circle and your "strike" circle, which is more heng energy. And just like heng, you can use either the yin part or the yang part to block towards the outside.
the beng is from the straight power. the pi is from the vertical circle.
as for keeping the pi apart from heng, that's just silly. the opening drill for pi is often used as heng. I use it like that all the time.
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 1:36pm
on May 8th, 2008, 4:50am, For wrote:
Yea, see you do one similar to the way I do mine. The thing is I noticed the chicken you do allot different in your system of hsingyi. Where and whom do you study from?
The school i studied at was Dr. Fred Weaver, the system is from Hung Yi Hsing. Fred got me started and taught me that what happens is each person kinda chooses the area he likes and starts developing the methods of that. What I always noticed was that allot of people will base there thinking on like the Swallow or the Chicken and do the other forms of the animals/elements off it. That is interesting thing about hsingyi.
Hi For:
My chicken form?. I don't think I have posted it here.
My line comes from Li Zhengban, Liu Qilan and Li Cunyi.
Posted by: Bao Has Risen from the Grave Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 3:38pm
on May 8th, 2008, 11:35am, nianfong wrote:
bao,
the heng element is from the footwork, and entering at an angle--this creates the horizontal twisting you mentioned. when you use horse on the inside gate, you are guiding your opponent's hands outside of your gate with both your "block" circle and your "strike" circle, which is more heng energy. And just like heng, you can use either the yin part or the yang part to block towards the outside.
the beng is from the straight power. the pi is from the vertical circle.
as for keeping the pi apart from heng, that's just silly. the opening drill for pi is often used as heng. I use it like that all the time.
ok, I see your point. Thanks for the explanation.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 5:07pm
on May 8th, 2008, 1:36pm, Felipe_Bido wrote:
My line comes from Li Zhengban, Liu Qilan and Li Cunyi.
Are the Liu Qilan and Li Cunyi considered different lines? If they are, what is different? (I also have a Li Cunyi line (which is part of the Liu Qilan line), so am curious.)
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 8:40pm
on May 8th, 2008, 5:07pm, Uatu the Watcher the Ed wrote:
Are the Liu Qilan and Li Cunyi considered different lines? If they are, what is different? (I also have a Li Cunyi line (which is part of the Liu Qilan line), so am curious.)
Liu Qilan taught Li Cunyi, and he also taught his son, Liu Dianchen. Since it's been said that Liu Dianchen's Xingyi was an exact copy of his father's, and there are differences between Li Cunyi's Xingyi and Liu Dianchen's, even in power generation, it's clear that Li Cunyi made modifications to what he had been taught (Just like Shang Yunxian did to the XY he learned from Li Cunyi).
There are differences in the forms, and the power generation from Liu Qilan's line apart from Li Cunyi, is more evident. The stepping is heavier, and the style has a 'heavier' feeling to it.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 9:47pm
Thanks for the answer - very interesting.
Perhaps Li Cunyi changed his material based on what he learned from Guo Yunshen (Shang Yunxiang also learned from Guo as well)?
I have a book by Liu Dianchen (wuxing, shierxing, lianhuan for barehand, sword, and spear); interestingly, the lianhuan seems to be similar to what I learned (different from the standard version out there, which is also the version in Di Guoyong's book, although he is of Shang Yunxiang's line).
I've been enjoying several xingyi books (in Chinese) that I have added to my library lately - all of them are of the Liu Qilan/Li Cunyi lines, incidentally. Lots of good stuff in there!
So... which style do you like better? Smiley
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 9:56pm
Li Zhenbang (Li Luoneng's grandson) Xingyi is the one I like the most. Xue Dian trained with Li Zhengban, too.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 10:21pm
Ah - don't have access to that one. Cheesy I do have a few Xue Dian books, but not his specifically xingyi one. He was an interesting character, to say the least Smiley
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 10:31pm
Jarek had planned to publish an article about Li Zhengban's Xingyi (he had two variations of his XY... one for the good students (or family members?), and another for the regular students). I hope he publishes it soon, if he can have access to his own website.
Anyway the 2nd variation of horse in my vid clips is closer to the one found in LZB's lineage.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 8th, 2008, 10:44pm
Wow, that should be a good article! Hope to see it soon - not much is known about the Li family version of xingyiquan yet (at least in public)... Surely it would be more "complete" than other systems, being Li Laoneng's own system. Wonder which version Xue Dian learned? Cheesy
The second variety of horse that you posted up is quite interesting - never saw that one before (not that I am a 12 animals afficionado or something, of course). Looks kind of like a zuan variation to my uneducated eyes...
Posted by: For Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 2:57am
on May 8th, 2008, 1:36pm, Felipe_Bido wrote:
Hi For:
My chicken form?. I don't think I have posted it here.
My line comes from Li Zhengban, Liu Qilan and Li Cunyi.
I could have sworn I seen your version either in pictures or something not sure I might have not seen yours. Seems like it was a while back when I saw the form.
Tao Boxer, put up Luo De Xiu that is very similar to the version of chicken form that I do. Xing Yi Rooster - Luo De Xiu! It is very much like the one I do.
Like I said when I was studying under a teacher in Hsingyi he said that a person takes and develops what naturally fits him or what he likes the most. Like some like the tiger they will develop it more and add/change.
I found that almost always it was rooster or dragon or monkey or tiger, that people prefer to use to develop from.
The thing I have always noticed was the Swallow from and the Rooster/Chicken forms would be used to do the other forms at each end usually.
Interesting you have two system of hsingyi. One has more leg work, hum?
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 7:07am
I've got two systems, too! However, unlike Felipe, I have about 2% of the system (to his 98% Cheesy ). However, I hope to push it up to at least around 5% some day! (Well, maybe that is pushing it a bit...)
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 7:12am
For
I posted two tutorials of the Chicken form in the main site. Maybe that's where you saw me Smiley
Ed,
I've seen both lines from Li Zhengban, and the 'regular' one looks very much like standard Hebei Xingyi, with a couple of differences here and there (i.e. the Bear form looks like the "Bear Shoulders" from my old tutorial). And it looks like Xue Dian got the other one Wink (Although he learned from other teachers and developed his own style later).
Mix,
You have seen the Horse form from Xue, right?. I mean, performed, not in the book
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 7:51am
That's an awesome line of xingyi, Felipe. Cheesy
So... who's the Zhangmenren now, anyway? Wink
I'll have to get Xue Dian's xingyi book if I ever find it (the wife is telling me to never buy another book again, though Cry )
Hey Mix - does your teacher practice the xiangxingquan from Xue Dian as well?
Posted by: Felipe_Bido Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 8:08am
on May 9th, 2008, 7:51am, Uatu the Watcher the Ed wrote:
I'll have to get Xue Dian's xingyi book if I ever find it (the wife is telling me to never buy another book again, though Cry )
LOL.
I had two copies of the book, and I gave one to Mr. Marcello Teixeira, RIP.
I have a PDF version in my archives, I think.
Ed, you said that the Horse with the fist face up looks like a Zuan to you...yes, in the external appearance it's similar. But the jing of that Horse form is like grabbing a rope tied to a horse's neck to pull his head to your direction; the back hand pulls the rope towards your body, while the front hand (which would look like a Zuan) is controlling the rope. The front arm has to keep a bit of tension to keep the rope in place. In application, most of the force is applied by the back hand, pulling the upcoming arm, while the front hand goes out there like a stake to pierce the center of the opponent (the throat and center of the face are good targets, too).
You may look at it like a passive beng quan with the back hand doing the main work.
Posted by: mix Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 9:17am
Ed: actually, Xue's xingyi is what I practice. I used to do Zhang's, but my teacher switched me over to doing Xue's because it is better for developing force
Felipe: I know only one part of Xue's horse form. The movement is like zuan done with heng footwork and the sides switched up (as in the hand that punches is the same hand as the back leg). I haven't seen the whole horse form though, just the most basic movement.
Posted by: taoistfist Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 12:44pm
well, just got around to getting a couple of our horse forms on video. so here they are.
once again youtube has made poor quality of my videos ... oh well.
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 5:41pm
Oh, don't worry about the PDF, Felipe - I still have it Cheesy (I would just rather curl up and read it lying down (me <- lazy ass))
Hmmm... your description is interesting, kind of sounds like my zuan, but with less twisting...
Mix: Sorry, I was wondering about xiangxingquan (image shape fist? Or something like that), a "new" style that Xue Dian created - maybe your teacher learned that, too. The style has 5 methods and 8 animals as its main techniques.
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 9:19pm
on May 7th, 2008, 7:53am, charles wrote:
My apologies. Given the title of the thread, I couldn't resist. Carry on...
This makes me fear for when we make it to zee cock.
Posted by: T J LePetomane Posted on: May 9th, 2008, 9:26pm
on May 9th, 2008, 12:44pm, taoistfist wrote:
well, just got around to getting a couple of our horse forms on video. so here they are.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ChjpYRliBY8
once again youtube has made poor quality of my videos ... oh well.
Ugh.
I'm watching these from the Sheraton's broadband access, and it's jumpy and skippy and just.... ugh.
But from what I can tell, it's similar to mine in that it works off of the cross-hands style block, but is like felipe's in that both hands go in the same direction.
I love seeing the various interpretations from diverse lines, keep it coming, folks.
Posted by: mix Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 3:29am
on May 9th, 2008, 5:41pm, Uatu the Watcher the Ed wrote:
Oh, don't worry about the PDF, Felipe - I still have it Cheesy (I would just rather curl up and read it lying down (me <- lazy ass))
Hmmm... your description is interesting, kind of sounds like my zuan, but with less twisting...
Mix: Sorry, I was wondering about xiangxingquan (image shape fist? Or something like that), a "new" style that Xue Dian created - maybe your teacher learned that, too. The style has 5 methods and 8 animals as its main techniques.
Yeah, my teacher knows xing xiang, but he keeps it pretty close to his vest, since its a fairly advanced form.....
Posted by: Uatu the Watcher the Ed Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 7:01am
That's pretty awesome, glad to know that some people have learned it - quite a rare one, that. Smiley
Posted by: mix Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 7:30am
I saw a bit of it, it has lots of bagua elements I think. As far as I know, its practiced on a straight line and it is very forceful.
Posted by: Mike_Strong Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 5:28pm
taoistfist,
I like your Horse Variation #2 ?
If you put everything that everyone has done, - and put it together in a sequence - it would be pretty close to what kenny gong did, ( and what I try to imitate ).
Maybe when i get my check from the govmint,- I'll get a vid camera and post my shit.
keep it coming !
Posted by: xingyijuan Posted on: May 10th, 2008, 8:24pm
Yang Hai has shown us some of the xiang xing, but too short to even catch parts of the movement. It was and eye candy to see him perform it though. The transitions are fast has hell with lost of bagua-like turnings. And very, very powerful positions. But I guess people here would say he's "leaning too much". Tongue
Grin
