Liu Chengde

[AllanF]

A demo of PH by Hong Junsheng's tuidi

Part 1


Part 2

[Andy_S]

First one was really nice. I love Lu - he really gets his man moving!

Bit irritated by the repetitive and half-hearted "attacks" by the uke in the second one, though: For a technqiue demo, could he not think of something more creative than gently placing his palms on Lu's chest or holding his wrist?

[kreese]

Actually, Andy, I don't think he could. Really.

[charles]

First one was really nice. I love Lu - he really gets his man moving!

Bit irritated by the repetitive and half-hearted "attacks" by the uke in the second one, though: For a technqiue demo, could he not think of something more creative than gently placing his palms on Lu's chest or holding his wrist?

Andy, based upon your on-going posts, you really owe it to yourself to add to the list of things you do before you die (or he dies) to go see Liu in person. Really. I'd bet money he's not like anything you've experienced before. He's down a whole other rabbit hole.

[Formosa Neijia]

First one was really nice. I love Lu - he really gets his man moving!

Bit irritated by the repetitive and half-hearted "attacks" by the uke in the second one, though: For a technqiue demo, could he not think of something more creative than gently placing his palms on Lu's chest or holding his wrist?

You might want to see what he does when the other party doesn't cooperate:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwVaeXQHsI

His match starts at around 1:47.

Dave C.

[mixjourneyman]

Dave, is he the older bigger guy?
If so, I think he did pretty well considering that he is going against a younger guy who obviously doesn't want to give him anything.
He doesn't do anything spectacular, but by the same token he doesn't lose.

[Interloper]

Heh heh. I like how everyone in the video is watching Liu's hands and trying to copy his wavy and circular hand forms, instead of watching his legs, waist and spine where all the actual action is.

[mixjourneyman]

Heh heh. I like how everyone in the video is watching Liu's hands and trying to copy his wavy and circular hand forms, instead of watching his legs, waist and spine where all the actual action is.

In IMA the hands and their position is extremely important.
If you can only generate power in your arms, your not good.
If you can only generate power in your body, your not good.
If you can generate power in both your arms and body, you stand a chance of getting good.

[Interloper]

Mix,
The arms are the channels through which power travels after having been generated from the ground through the legs, center, waist and spine. They only have to have enough structure to hold them up and at the proper vector and angle to deliver the power where he wishes. The guy he is pushing feels iron in Liu's hands, but that iron is not the hands and arms themselves, which are relaxed and unflexed. The iron is coming from elsewhere.

People get too hung up on hand form, and hand forms, IMO.

[qiphlow]

good, good stuff.

[mixjourneyman]

Mix,
The arms are the channels through which power travels after having been generated from the ground through the legs, center, waist and spine. They only have to have enough structure to hold them up and at the proper vector and angle to deliver the power where he wishes. The guy he is pushing feels iron in Liu's hands, but that iron is not the hands and arms themselves, which are relaxed and unflexed. The iron is coming from elsewhere.

People get too hung up on hand form, and hand forms, IMO.

Maybe I'm just talking from a bagua and xingyi pov.
The position of the arms is extremely important since the strength used is not whippy like in Yang and Wu style Taijiquan, but instead has an elastic quality which adds extra force.
I think its the same in Chen style (though I know much more about bagua and xingyi than Chen style taiji).

[mixjourneyman]

Actually as a caveat, if you go to a good teacher of Chen style, they will show you that how your arms are held is extremely important.
I have had only two chen style teachers but one just did the form with the ground path and didn't bother correcting the arms (low level), the other combines both and makes damn sure that what you are doing with your arms helps to produce force (drilling, coiling etc). In my opinion only focusing on one aspect will never get you real internal power.

Of course again, I will say that I can't speak for Yang or Wu style, since I never got instruction in those styles from a high level teacher.

[Interloper]

Mix,
I agree with you for the most part about hand positions. It's that there seems to be too much focus on that, while not bringing up far more vital things, such as the actual power sources that the hands are just the final out-point for.

[mixjourneyman]

Mix,
I agree with you for the most part about hand positions. It's that there seems to be too much focus on that, while not bringing up far more vital things, such as the actual power sources that the hands are just the final out-point for.

Fair enough.
I think we were just talking at cross purposes.

[C.J.Wang]

First one was really nice. I love Lu - he really gets his man moving!

Bit irritated by the repetitive and half-hearted "attacks" by the uke in the second one, though: For a technqiue demo, could he not think of something more creative than gently placing his palms on Lu's chest or holding his wrist?

You might want to see what he does when the other party doesn't cooperate:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IJwVaeXQHsI

His match starts at around 1:47.

Dave C.

Hmm....I have seen the clip before and I really don't think it's a good judge of any of those masters' skills. They were in a public place with many spectators and most likely knowing that they were being filmed. None of them would be dumb enough to actually engage one another and risk getting dumped on their butt, losing face, and letting the event be captured on tape. It's all about politics.

For the most part, they were just goofing around in front of the camera for show.

Another thing is that when two people who both know what they are doing play push hand, there usually isn't much movement because both sides are being cautious, and it's difficult to find a weakness or opening to exploit.