Baji: Matsuda Ryuuji

[Kurt Robbins]

SPJ,
Liu Yun Qiao does the same throw here:
:17 through :25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE0zSNng2Z
You have to consider the viability of the application (not to say it would not work). It looks difficult to pull off.
I am never going to use the set up given in your example (I don't train with people who punch as badly as that), so it puts into question what could set that up to work. Personally I would not modify that particular movement not into a throw but instead an elbow, I would use the hand to block the forehead and use the rotating elbow off the transverse plane. I would lead off a jab, cross then a tight left hook and then lead in with the right elbow into the chin or nose or sternum depending on the direction that the hook put them into or if it landed.

The throws I mentioned are adaptable and proven under pressure (in Judo and MMA) so the set ups are numerous (still very difficult to pull off).
I think it's the set ups and angles that are bothering me.
The other clips are just unrealistic. There are pieces of truth in them like the clip of Wu Lianzhi the reverse to the clinch, his direction to counter is correct but his idea of using his fist to extend the elbow is just unrealistic against a trained fighter in a clinch (besides knees and elbows flying into your thoracicabdominals and face) is going to be very strong and dynamic with him wipping your neck and body into angles that benefit him. It would most likely work fine against "Joe I've never fought before" but that is not expanding Baji's horizons.

This is where fundementals of fighting techniques lends a reality during sparring with competent fighters to test what will work and what won't. This is where sparring is a neccesity, for if you form a hypothesis of a possible technique you NEED to test it against a stressful comptitive situation to find whether it works or not and to what degree to build off of.

[SPJ]

agreed about the angles and approaches/setup for entry that you pointed out.

1. the first vid about big snake entwining the body, actually, we move our lead hand and lead foot to be close to the opponent at the same time, --opening the door (the opponent's arm) and move in at the 3 levels of the body at the same time. and not the snake hand sliding first with bow stance and move in the leg next--

2. the Wu vid has some good ideas, but some has to be within a context, or needs more stuff/setup as pointed out by you.

here is a good vid showing direct approach, which is moving in fast with both lead hand and lead leg at the same time, to take up the position of the opponent to eat and bury his root or chi gen mai gen.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLrRRXSpCdc

the approach or entry is not over complicated, when the opponent throws a punch, you move in at the same time with your lead head and lead leg to take up the position and throws.
the opponent's punching arm is ignored, dodged by an inch or use one hand to guard it, just move in with your whole body--

you may see examples in this vid.

great thread and discussions.

thanks everyone.

[Bob]

SPJ, thanks for that clip. Is that Jing Li Yen? If so, I now have a much better understanding of and respect for him-----Thanks very much!

This clip helped me see where some of the things we learned years back were going. Sometimes I am bit too harsh on various aspects of Wu Tan(g) but I see a much bigger picture now.

[Kurt Robbins]

I have seen this video before and upon researching and testing the content I found some major obsticles.
Since the process was lengthy (if that's a word?) I will only include a couple items.

1) In my experiance (and test subjects) Muay Thai and Dutch cross boxers are covered up very thoroughly and intelligently.
When these fighters throw shots they throw them accuratly, quickly (punching out and pulling back in), cover their own defensive angles and finally load the next punch off the first one.
This creates a really amazing defense dynamic and leaves the Baji practitioner with the conundrum of trying to invade and take advantage of a really small space.
Now we have the connection of the throws takedowns and attacks from the video and realizing that these models of entry and control are almost impossible with a said defensive opponent. So when I say these throws are unrealistic I am testing under that criteria.

2) With that being said we can deduce that all the entries from the video have now become obsolete and unrealistic. Establishing that (and I tested each and every technique in that video) a new model must be drawn up. I know the entries don't work but what if I change the set. Now using different leads and entering some space on my oppenent, I came to the same problem; the defensive posture and defensive/offensive dynamic (accuratly, quickly (punching out and pulling back in), cover their own defensive angles and finally load the next punch off the first one.) the angles no longer were there for me to use. For example In the video (from Xiao Baji and Jingang number four WuTan version) when an MMA practitioner (Titles for the sake of position) grabs my arm he is not trying to hold my position but pull my arm grab my elbow shuck me forward and him behind me where grabs and suplexes me. His (MMA practitioner)position is tight and covered, for me to grab his arm cirlce (pronate) his wrist snap it and punch he already has my back. he doesn't stay still he shucks my elbow immediatly, so in essence the angle I need to trap his wrist is no longer there.

These are the problems I am running into. I am finding solutions.

Hey Bob - I still train my Baji.

[SPJ]

SPJ, thanks for that clip. Is that Jing Li Yen? If so, I now have a much better understanding of and respect for him-----Thanks very much!

This clip helped me see where some of the things we learned years back were going. Sometimes I am bit too harsh on various aspects of Wu Tan(g) but I see a much bigger picture now.

Yes.

actually, their training also focuses on dealing with gun and knife a lot.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lag3UOWIbEE

[SPJ]

I have seen this video before and upon researching and testing the content I found some major obsticles.
Since the process was lengthy (if that's a word?) I will only include a couple items.

1) In my experiance (and test subjects) Muay Thai and Dutch cross boxers are covered up very thoroughly and intelligently.
When these fighters throw shots they throw them accuratly, quickly (punching out and pulling back in), cover their own defensive angles and finally load the next punch off the first one.
This creates a really amazing defense dynamic and leaves the Baji practitioner with the conundrum of trying to invade and take advantage of a really small space.
Now we have the connection of the throws takedowns and attacks from the video and realizing that these models of entry and control are almost impossible with a said defensive opponent. So when I say these throws are unrealistic I am testing under that criteria.

2) With that being said we can deduce that all the entries from the video have now become obsolete and unrealistic. Establishing that (and I tested each and every technique in that video) a new model must be drawn up. I know the entries don't work but what if I change the set. Now using different leads and entering some space on my oppenent, I came to the same problem; the defensive posture and defensive/offensive dynamic (accuratly, quickly (punching out and pulling back in), cover their own defensive angles and finally load the next punch off the first one.) the angles no longer were there for me to use. For example In the video (from Xiao Baji and Jingang number four WuTan version) when an MMA practitioner (Titles for the sake of position) grabs my arm he is not trying to hold my position but pull my arm grab my elbow shuck me forward and him behind me where grabs and suplexes me. His (MMA practitioner)position is tight and covered, for me to grab his arm cirlce (pronate) his wrist snap it and punch he already has my back. he doesn't stay still he shucks my elbow immediatly, so in essence the angle I need to trap his wrist is no longer there.

These are the problems I am running into. I am finding solutions.

Hey Bob - I still train my Baji.

very good points.

1. we always have to pass 3 guards, hand/fist/wrist, elbow and shoulder of the opponent before we get close and throw.

when we move in, we have to guard against or avoid these 3 guards.

2. if the opponent is a fast puncher, one punch after another, then we move back or to the side and punch back on the head or rib side, if it is open, or just kick when he punches.

if close enough, we do our knee and elbow techniques

if close enough we flip and throw.

meaning, we may let the opponent move close to us, we move to the side or crossly or position ourself to take away his advantage, and land our punches, kicks, elbow and knee or throws.

Shaolin fist would get lower and assume half squatting or pu bu and sweep the legs like 3 times in dealing with a faster and stronger punchers at high.

Ba Ji, there is also she shen xia shi or pu bu and punch the knee or groin. and then move upward with a fist to the chin it is called thru the sky fist or tong tian pao (canon).

if the opponent moves high and fast, we may move to the side and gua, or move lower and then up etc

or just kick the shin or knee of the opponent when the opponent moves closer to do high punches,(this is used a lot in ba ji) and of course we lean back our high or just guard with one hand, and the other hand do a mid punch at the same time.

yi da ding zhou zuo you fan.

we punch and kick first,

if close enough, we elbow and knee,

if close or near enough, we flip left and right to throw.

--

and of course

these are obvious points that we all know.

[SPJ]

every throw or technique does have criteria or requirements to work.

agreed that everything has to be there for it to work.

there are also counters for the throws and techniques.

--

that is the FUN part.

[Bob]

I also, in passing reference, know of the baji staff training--Li Shu Wen's use of an iron bar.

At first, when I heard of this, I thought it was developing punching power but later I learned that there is no form and only single moving, simple exercises with a very heavy iron bar--I learned one and they are no secret in execution but in training, I understand they are used to train for throws. Now a lot of this makes sense--thanks again for posting, SPJ and helping me see with a bit more insight than I had previously.

Kurt, I will sometime PM--I sincerely am happy that you have found your path and hope that baji will continue to help.

[GrahamB]

Wow! As an avid admirer of Baji (no experience just always like the look) I am really impressed by the honesty and maturity shown by Baji practisioners in this thread. So rare in CMA for people to remove those howsoever-tinted glasses, Sirs I commend you

Seconded!

I don't practice Baji, but I know somebody who does. He takes the Baji very seriously. My experience of Baji people is that they tend to be as hard as nails. You have to expect a severe amount of punishment if you want to learn Baji. When I questioned why the lack of defence to parts of the body (as Kurt observed) the answer I got surprised me, which made me look at it through new eyes - maybe this might be helpful to people -

It's always worth asking 'what is this martial art for?' when looking at any martial art. In the West i think we tend to assume they are all the same thing. Baji is a martial art favoured by body guards, and as a body guard your own protection is not your first priority. (I believe that Pu Yi the last emperor's body guard's favoured Baji and he learned it himself - there are pics of him practicing it) If you die protecting your client that's ok, so long as you protected the client. Your regard for your own personal safety is secondary. Anyway, I thought that was quite enlightening about what exactly Baji is and why it looks like it does. But maybe that's just me

[JAB]

Graham - That is the silliest thing I have heard! If you (as a bodyguard) die, who is going to protect the subject??
Baji is not the only style known for being employed with secret service and what not. What about Bagua, Shuai Chiao, Xing Yi, etc.

Jake

[Kurt Robbins]

I have to agree with Jake.
Your not protecting anybody spread eagle becuase you got knocked the fuck out becuase you didn't think it was improtant to block your chin.

[mixjourneyman]

I love the potential of this thread.

*cracks a beer and throws his feet up on the couch.

[Swede]

To be totally upfront: never fired a gun, never been in a knife fight. But in way that ought to lend a bit more credibility to what I am about to say about the baji vs. knife and gun video. If I ever have to point a gun at someone, I am darn sure not going to touch their body with it, I am going to stay far enough back so that I think I can get a few rounds off before they can close the gap (in one of those apps, the guy had the gun in the middle of the defender's back, the defender shuffled his feet before turning and attacking--couldn't the gunman shoot then?). As for knife attacks, those looked really big. If I really felt the need to attack with a knife, I'd keep that thing hidden until the last moment--why start your swing from two paces away? And if I'm smart enough to know those things, don't people who use guns and knives regularly also know them?

[SPJ]

I posted a few posts to point out some moves/postures in xiao and da ba ji looking like punches may actually be turned into throws.

That is all I intended.

of course these videos have loopholes or points that are not covered. These are obvious to everyone.

I may also point out more "holes" and how they will not work, but the videos are just to demo some ideas.

1. the knife fight, you would pick a staff, a piece of board or take off your shirt and roll it up, your belt etc, to have something on your hand to distance yourself from the knife etc. the props you used are against the opponent's forearm or wrist etc---

2. the gun, yes, you would run and hide behind a cover or just lie down asap. yes nobody would point the gun so close to your body.

--

--

[Kurt Robbins]

SPJ,
I don't have any experiance with knife tactics and very little with hand guns - so I won't comment on that (don't know - then I shut up and listen).
I like what you see in Baji and I definatly agree with seeing a series of depths to the movements in Baji.

My problem here is the level of difficulty or standards these techniues are being tested to.
For example; if I do a throwing technique to an opponent who is attacking me by doing an exaggerated axe chopping "thing", I am working with an unrealistic and useless tool. All of the set ups in those videos are exaggerated and become detrimental to the technique as well as the practitioner. If I use these techniques against experianced fighters and well founded techniques I can bring my Baji to a useful level.
If your opponent is doing 50% of the work to throw himself then your missing out on the 50% of the techniqes you really need.
In my example of the exaggerated axe attack "thing", the throw may work but I need to cover off the punches, cover the distance, figure out the right direction to pummel get the underhook and take advantage of the direction I throw the opponent.
These are what I consider to be the weaknesses in Baji.
The movements and forms are organic they just need to be applied and specifically how they are applied.
It is not enough to maintain forms we must develop the key to unlock what is in the forms.