Excellent PH tourney clip

[mixjourneyman]

That is amusing Omar. From frequent experience pushing with most of the people in that clip, I can attest to them being able to do some pretty amazing stuff at that range.

[Brady]

i've always thought closer = more points of contact = requires more skill

[bailewen]

I'm sure they can Mix and there are certainly things to be done at that range. I just have to assume then that they do not only train at that range.

In fact, the guy who appears to be the teacher in that session has to take his stance in almost a full half step in order to start showing some pushes. His very first push, around 42 seconds in, is the only exception. The guy on the right only needed to shift his weight back to neutralize but he is caught mid push and the other guy pushes him back through his own arms. If he was better at collapsing his arms, then even without any real stucture he could have neutralized that one. After that, he moves on to "pulling" techniques, or more accurately, lu, which is exactly what a really deep stance like that makes you vulnerable to (as he himself demonstrates later in the clip, about 1:48). When you are that extended, your forward advance is already extended to it's limit. As I was watching the first 40 seconds I kept thinking how easy it would be for either side to lu the other one past or even to do so in a forceful way.

The natural counter to lu is kao. When someone attempts to pull your lead arm away you should go with it and slam them with the shoulder. Add footwork and you have a throw. If you are too far to attack with kao then you are extra vulnerable to lu.

I am sure the players all have some really nice skill. I had no idea who they were or what else they are capable. I am only offering my critique of what is shown in the clip and offering it particularly in regards to the aspect of the competition clip we were discussing: range. Ironically, when they move on to more detailed applications later in the clip, the teacher does exactly what I am recommending, he shortens his stance and moves in closer.

John,

Good point about the fear factor. I would answer that that's another reason why fixed step push hands is kind of silly as a competition. If the person enters on the side that you are afraid of for the technique that you wish to learn, then I agree that stepping back may be a better option but that still leaves you wanting to control the range better than that. You would want to retreat only just enough to avoid their initial attack but not so far that you now have to cross the bridge all over again. Even Wang Zong Yue writes that "adanving and retreating are opportunities to attach and to apply techniques" (向前退后，乃能得机得势)

[johnwang]

There are something interest in this clip that has not been discussed here. At 0.17, the tall guy's left hand controlled the short guy's right arm. It also happened again at 1.31. Both times the short guy didn't do anything and he didn't know what could happen either.

At 2.15 the red shirt guy had left hand controlled his opponent's right arm. The white shirt guy's left hand controlled his opponent's right hand to prevent him from obtaining the 2nd "contact point".

This indicated that the white shirt guy had much more knowledge in the clinching situation than both of his opponents.

What's your opinion on this?

[GrahamB]

For Omar's benefit I need to repeat again (probably for about the fourth time on this thread now!), that I mean that Bridging Range is the default engagement position of Push hands - but obviously you need to move closer to do some techniques like hip throw, and that they can't be done at 'push hands range' or 'Bridging range'. Yes - what you're saying is exactly what I meant, but my point is about getting them back to bridging range afterwards.

My point about staying at Bridging range, is that to make it a good 'Push hands competition' you need to get people to return back to that range, where the arm circles are done, as the engagement poition, and not just ignore this range and hug each other where it is safer. Give 'em 3 seconds to do something, then reset them, or give a warning - whatever.

In the original clip, after the first encounter, they just go straight for the hugging range safe zone of grappling and wait there for something to happen like a weight shift to your advantage. That turns it into a SC competition, intead of a true push hands competition, to me. In push hands where striking with knees, elbows and head would be allowed they obviously couldn't do this type of close body stuff for extended periods. Obviously you can't put those into a competition - so.... if you have a rule to take them out, I think you need a rule to balance out the grappling range that results. That does not stop anybody moving in for teH DeAdlY throw.

"fear based" - that's a laugh! I'm certainly afraid of having to explain myself again!

G

[GrahamB]

There are something interest in this clip that has not been discussed here. At 0.17, the tall guy's left hand controlled the short guy's right arm. It also happened again at 1.31. Both times the short guy didn't do anything and he didn't know what could happen either.

At 2.15 the red shirt guy had left hand controlled his opponent's right arm. The white shirt guy's left hand controlled his opponent's right hand to prevent him from obtaining the 2nd "contact point".

This indicated that the white shirt guy had much more knowledge in the clinching situation than both of his opponents.

What's your opinion on this?

I think the guy in white was much more experienced at this - it was like watching lambs to the slaughter!

[johnwang]

The no jacket wrestling is much easier than the jacket wrestling. Your clinching will give your opponent the "1st contact point" for free and that will save him a lot of effort. If your right hand surround your opponent's waist then all he needs is to "under hook" that arm by his left arm, move his body in front of yours, and trap your legs.

If you are a striker, you should not play clinching game with any wrestler. If you keep your bridging range then you can control the fight and make it into a pure striking game. That will be to your advantage.

[shawnsegler]

I hate to be a bother, JW. Do you still have that footage of the SC style that fights in the mud and I believe the rules were something like shoulder to the ground for the win. Can't remember the name of the style but I really enjoyed it and never tried to copy the clip. I should have.

Best,

S

[johnwang]

I think you are talking about the Yi style SC clip.

Http://johnswang.com/Yee_SC.wmv

[shawnsegler]

Thanks. That's one of my all time favorite clips.

Best,

S

[Formosa Neijia]

In the original clip, after the first encounter, they just go straight for the hugging range safe zone of grappling and wait there for something to happen like a weight shift to your advantage. That turns it into a SC competition, instead of a true push hands competition, to me. In push hands where striking with knees, elbows and head would be allowed they obviously couldn't do this type of close body stuff for extended periods.

The "safe zone" as you put it is where most of the throws happen. So it isn't safe in terms of throws -- it's more dangerous. Nor do you just wait there. That position is where you break the opponent's balance and/or structure for the throw. It's really quite a bit more sophisticated than is being made out.

Second, the addition of strikes wouldn't necessarily change this that much. People clinch in fighting for the express purpose of shutting down strikes, the exact opposite of what you're saying in your last sentence above. Proper clinching makes striking very difficult.

As I said in my blog post, we really need more clinch work in CMA.

Dave C.

[shawnsegler]

edit: shawn says to shawn...no posting all drunk.

[GrahamB]

I hate to be a bother, JW. Do you still have that footage of the SC style that fights in the mud and I believe the rules were something like shoulder to the ground for the win. Can't remember the name of the style but I really enjoyed it and never tried to copy the clip. I should have.

Best,

S

Found:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=poRjzNl8p ... re=related

At least I think that's what you meant, right?

[GrahamB]

In the original clip, after the first encounter, they just go straight for the hugging range safe zone of grappling and wait there for something to happen like a weight shift to your advantage. That turns it into a SC competition, instead of a true push hands competition, to me. In push hands where striking with knees, elbows and head would be allowed they obviously couldn't do this type of close body stuff for extended periods.

The "safe zone" as you put it is where most of the throws happen. So it isn't safe in terms of throws -- it's more dangerous. Nor do you just wait there. That position is where you break the opponent's balance and/or structure for the throw. It's really quite a bit more sophisticated than is being made out.

Second, the addition of strikes wouldn't necessarily change this that much. People clinch in fighting for the express purpose of shutting down strikes, the exact opposite of what you're saying in your last sentence above. Proper clinching makes striking very difficult.

As I said in my blog post, we really need more clinch work in CMA.

Dave C.

Dave, if you look at the percentage of the time in the clip where no they hug each other while no technique is applied and they jockey for position (probably 95%) compared to the percentage of time applying a technique (probably 5%) I think you'd have to re-think whether this is the safe zone or not.

Strikes would change things hugely, in terms of the amount of time spent stand-up hugging. How much time do people spend stand up hugging in MMA? It's a few seconds. Knees go in, elbows, punches, all hell breaks loose and they either go to the ground or separate.

We may well need more clinch work in CMA - few striking orientated systems spend enough time on the important work of break falls, and throws - but that's a separate issue.

G

[kreese]

How much time do people spend stand up hugging in MMA? It's a few seconds. Knees go in, elbows, punches, all hell breaks loose and they either go to the ground or separate.

Just watched the UFC with Couture. There was a hell of a lot of time spent in the clinch in many of the fights, and there is actually quite a bit of technique involved even if it looks a little boring sometimes. There really isn't a lot of striking from there because the fighters are too close. It's a rather dangerous point for either man because the advantage can really be gained or lost from there.