Excellent PH tourney clip

[GrahamB]

How much time do people spend stand up hugging in MMA? It's a few seconds. Knees go in, elbows, punches, all hell breaks loose and they either go to the ground or separate.

Just watched the UFC with Couture. There was a hell of a lot of time spent in the clinch in many of the fights, and there is actually quite a bit of technique involved even if it looks a little boring sometimes. There really isn't a lot of striking from there because the fighters are too close. It's a rather dangerous point for either man because the advantage can really be gained or lost from there.

Yeah - good point. I'm watching it now. They seem to have no pain threshold for those knees - tough bastards.

Note: elbows and heads are not allowed in the clinch.

[mixjourneyman]

Hey Omar, no worries. Remember, those are training methods used to develop specific things and are not an end in themselves

[bailewen]

Well I can certainly agree with that.

As I said before, training that low and that wide does help develop some things and I assume that you guys do not only train that way and as the clip runs on, you can see that the stance is narrowed for various applications.

Basically my take on low and wide is sort of the same as on high and narrow, or as John Wang likes to say, "trade off". But more than that it's that I do not think low is better or high is better. What is better is having a wide range. When my opponent goes low, I want to be able to go lower. When my opponent goes high, I want to get even higher.

[mixjourneyman]

Well I can certainly agree with that.

As I said before, training that low and that wide does help develop some things and I assume that you guys do not only train that way and as the clip runs on, you can see that the stance is narrowed for various applications.

Basically my take on low and wide is sort of the same as on high and narrow, or as John Wang likes to say, "trade off". But more than that it's that I do not think low is better or high is better. What is better is having a wide range. When my opponent goes low, I want to be able to go lower. When my opponent goes high, I want to get even higher.

I agree with that.
What Yang Laoshi and company are showing in that video are a) some of Chen style's 9 push hands methods (Chen guys can correct me if I'm wrong, there may be more than 9 methods) and b) some application.
There are lots of other methods in Chen style Tui shou, but these ones are fairly common (specifically the low long one).
I really only dabble in Taiji at this point though, so I can't comment too much on whats what in those videos.

[dragontigerpalm]

When my opponent goes low, I want to be able to go lower. When my opponent goes high, I want to get even higher.

I wish you would elaborate on this POV. Do you subscibe to this approach as it pertains solely to PH or is this for you a guiding principle for all H2H encounters?

[johnwang]

We may well need more clinch work in CMA

We also need

- "major hand" and "minor hand" concept.
- butterfly hands principles
- no jacket wrestling neck, shoulder, arm, waist, and leg control methods.

If your opponent is a

- TKD guy, the safe zoom in any range besides the kicking range.
- boxer, the safe zoom in any range besides the punching (bridging) range.
- wrestler, the safe zoom in any range besides the clinching range.

[GrahamB]

John - sounds interesting. What is the major and minor hands principle?

[johnwang]

The major hand is the hand that you use to "pull". The minor hand is the hand that you use to "push". Since you will have less chance to obtain a contact point for pulling than contact point for pushing. The pulling contact point is much more important than the pushing contact point. In the clip from the 0.00 to 0.21, the taller guy's left hand controlled the shorter guy's right arm (major hand - 1st contact point). The shorter guy didn't try hard enough to break that control. With that "major hand", the taller guy can attack anytime that he wants to. It ends with the taller guy's right hand push his opponent's shoulder (minor hand - 2nd contact point), and hook his leg (3rd contact point) and take him down.

If your opponent has major hand control on you, you should try very hard to break that control. If you can't break that control then you should try to control his free arm so he won't be able to obtain the 2nd contact point on you. Your opponent has just put you in a "defense mode".

This is why you should always study your opponent before the match. If you detect that he is a "right hand" person then you should keep your right arm away from his left hand and don't allow his left hand to touch your right arm. If you are also a "right hand" person then you may let his right hand to control your left arm any way that he wants to because he just gives you the 1st contact point for free.

[GrahamB]

Thanks, John - very interesting - reminds me a lot of Tai Chi's 'separate empty and solid'.

What is butterfly hands principle?

[johnwang]

The butterfly hand include 30 different principles (explain in detail in David C. K. Lin's book):

Tearing (SI), Cracking (BENG), Striking push (TONG), Hand pushing (TUN), Elbow pressing (ZHOU) 撕崩捅褪肘
Covering hands (GAI), Pulling hands (LUO), Body-shaking hands (YAO), Reverse arm-holding (DAO), Shaking (DOU) 蓋攞搖捯抖
Separate hands (FEN), Hand clamping (YE), Arm guiding (YIN), Arm raising (PENG), Elbow Locking (JIA) 分掖引捧架
Under hook (QUAN), Over hook (CHAO), Wiping (MO), Head circling (PIAN), Clamping head (JIA) 圈抄抹偏夾
Helmet taking (ZAI), Face covering (WU), Forehead push (SU), Sticking drop (ZHUI), Leg seizing (LAO) 摘摀速墬撈
Neck surrounding (HUAN), Chin pushing (TUO), Throat/waist blocking (FENG), Casting (SA), Floating hand (PIAO) 環托封撒飄

Which are used in the clinching range control fighting.

For example, In that clip at 1.56, the white shirt guy's right arm surrounds the red shirt guy's waist. If the red shirt guy uses left arm over hook (CHAO) 抄 to control the white shirt guy's right arm, move his body in front of his opponent, and then trap his legs, the red shirt guy can take the white shirt guy down in less than a second. The reason is the white shirt guy's waist hold becomes a free contact point for the red shirt guy. Unfortunately the red shirt guy didn't know how to take advantage on that free contact point.

[bailewen]

When my opponent goes low, I want to be able to go lower. When my opponent goes high, I want to get even higher.

I wish you would elaborate on this POV. Do you subscibe to this approach as it pertains solely to PH or is this for you a guiding principle for all H2H encounters?

It seems pretty obvious once you take a look at it.

When advancing, your opponent is going to possibly retreat. If he retreats you better be able to advance farther than he can retreat or you will never catch him. Likewise, when someone shoots in on you and is trying to get under your COG you better be able to get lower faster than he can. OTOH, there are attacks that bring you up and you need to extend higher. It's a basic principle of Taiji combat for ALL encounters. You are supposed to try and get the other guy to overextend himself and then counter attack in that moment when they have gone beyond their comfort zone. Your counter punch should land either when your opponents punch has reached its maximum extension or when it is at it's maximum retraction. You should catch a kick for a throw only when the kick has fully expended all it's damaging power.

If you are using kao as a counter to lu you need to be able to stay underneath the lu energy or you will be too busy falling over to kao. Examples of rising "above" or simply following and energy upwards are harder for me to think of in text because most of the way it tends to work is not so simply as standing up high or squatting low. It's about leading energy and the principle applies to all directions, not just up and down. You must have the ability to "outdistance" you opponents technique.

Here's an example clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrXz6mZJQes

On the first attempt, Shifu executes the throw. At 10 seconds we review what I had attempted but never got off first base with as a counter. I try to reach behind him and sweep his front leg back but he extends forward farther than my forward push can extend and his leg extends backwards farther than my sweep can reach. Finally at 30 seconds he explains what a better way to counter that throw would have been. In that one, "fair lady works shuttles" as a counter to "rubbing" or "high pat horse", even if he were to pull my upper arm across I can drop the upper hand down behind my own neck and he is not in a position to pull it farther than that.

You always want to yield but what happens when you yield into a dead end? Make sure you always have somewhere to yield to and make sure you can "chase" your opponent wherever he goes.

[johnwang]

If you are using kao as a counter to lu.

If your opponent uses his back foot to press on the knee of your leading leg when he applies lu (搂臂迎门踢 Lou Bi Ying Men Ti) then you cannot move forward and counter him with your kao. This is why it's so important to be able to use your leg along with your hands in PH. You will save yourself a lot of trouble if you know how to use your leg. Unfortunately most Taiji PH won't allow you to use your leg.

[dragontigerpalm]

Omar, Thanks for the explanation.