Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:49 pm

richardg6 wrote:兄 Stephen;

Thank you for your effort and patience. I have learned things from various internal styles that were not taught in my style and have been a fan of CMC and Mr Smith since 72. Love chess too.

Thanks,
Richard


Thank you Richard!
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Walk the Torque on Thu May 16, 2019 9:45 pm

GrahamB wrote:Oops - sorry - the Yang Fa Jin video was supposed to be this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvawGWNFuA0

So, 'bouncing' is not 'Ti Fang' - but does it have a Chinese name?

Thanks,
G



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Last edited by Walk the Torque on Thu May 16, 2019 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby richardman on Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:18 am

If I may chime in, IMHO Ti Fang 提放 is using Ting Jin 聽勁 to very subtly (as in, in the realm of Qi and Yi) lead the opponent to slightly off-root, and once the root is off, you can Fang or Fa as you wish.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:49 pm

Hi richardman,

Could I ask that you give more detail on "lead the opponent to slightly off-root"? What do you mean by "lead"? What is "off-Root"?

Since, 'Tifang' does not actually require guiding the other over some distance, are you saying "lead" as in 牽, qian(1), from the Song of Hitting Hands, which has as its subtlest meaning, "to draw in"—which can be done with no discernible movement.

Since, 'root' is simply the ability to resist a push (http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/201 ... in-tai-chi), but I've never encountered the term "off-root". Do you mean the same as "sever his root", to make it so that he cannot resist a push?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Sincerely,
Stephen : )
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:47 pm

”Once the opponent’s heels lift and his body is no longer stable, I release energy along the direction he is leaning, and without the slightest effort he is made to stumble far away. ” - Chen Weiming.

Not to reply for Mr Man, but when we use Tifang, we connect directly to the opponent’s balance/feet with tingjin and add pressure or pull slightly the opponent off balance. You need to feel when he is unbalanced and then he can be placed away without effort.


Since, 'root' is simply the ability to resist a push (http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/201 ... in-tai-chi), but I've never encountered the term "off-root". Do you mean the same as "sever his root", to make it so that he cannot resist a push?


This is something I don’t agree with. Non-skilled people don’t have the ability to resist, if they do, you follow and use that and his tension. But it can be very hard to affect the balance of skilled people who knows how to sink and adapt to pressure/pulling and they can feel very heavy and unmovable. Rooting skill is definitely something else than the ability to resist a push.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Giles on Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:43 am

Yes. And the same rooting that makes you 'hard to move' or hard to unbalance can also be used when you issue force. 'Use the ground to hit the opponent.' Or same thing expressed in different words: connect more explicitly with your own root at the moment your issuing hand(s) connect with the opponent. (Then quickly hide your root again).
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Walk the Torque on Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:58 pm

The way I learnt Ti Fang and my current interpretation of it is that, when we apply the technique our opponent has a separation of control and alignment of their physical body and the mass/momentum of that body, so that they become in a way, 'top-heavy' resulting in a lessening of their functional connection with the ground.

This may cause them to a) fall forward slightly, in which case they can be 'caught and repelled b) lurch forward so they can be 'led' along the same or similar path they are traveling c) realize they are falling forward and try to adjust to regain control,and in that instance be 'followed' out with extra impetus sending them faster than they intended in the direction they are attempting to recover.

The mechanism of Ti Fang is a little like a wave (whether used externally upon the opponent's body, or internally joining with their momentum and causing a discordance with their physical body) that can draw one into a hole and then follow up and capitalize on the momentary lack of groundedness and resultant control.

OFF ROOT - while not a classical term I'm aware of does denote a lack of connection to the ground that can cause a momentary loss of balance, reduced ability to change direction or technique, and a reduced ability to withstand outside forces; I say reduced because in my experience even if one is up on tippy toes and the recipient of the opponent's efforts to take down, throw, trip or pile drive you into the floor, provided you can sink your weight into your toes and adjust unwanted forces through traction with the ground it is possible to stave off the effects of such attacks.

TI FANG - From my experience with this technique I have found that the skill of the opponent that it is used on dictates the application directly following it. The opponents skill may allow them to adjust more quickly than an unseasoned opponent and therefore reduce the distance they can be pushed out; however the use of a short shocking pulse (in the optimum direction)
can disrupt their balance to such a degree that a follow-up technique (or techniques) can be applied to good affect, such as lock, foot sweep or trap and strike. It is essentially a way of disrupting the mind.

All the best
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:12 am

Bao wrote:”Once the opponent’s heels lift and his body is no longer stable, I release energy along the direction he is leaning, and without the slightest effort he is made to stumble far away. ” - Chen Weiming.
.

Heel lifts? I guess Chen Weiming talking from som sort of PH scenario ? If I’m weighted forward on my feet I still have control, but on my heels it’s difficult.


I recently found a vid of early Shotokan. It said is was filmed in 1924, but I found out it’s from 1932. Still an very early video. Too bad there no such film of all those Taiji greats in China that where around back then.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:47 am

Forward weighted or not, If your balance is too far forward you’ll lose your balance or need to take a step forward. It’s not easy to control or feel a bouncer’s balance which is constantly switching, but you certainly don’t need a PH scenario. The easiest way to use this principle for real is probably if someone is trying to grab you, go in for a throw or similar. Perfectly doable and pretty easy when someone sacrifices his own balance without being aware of it.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby richardman on Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:06 am

Sorry, I do not visit this forum often.

I agree with Stephen that indeed one should not exert more than 4 ounces (actually less) on another person as felt by the other person. The key is "as felt by". The corollary is as mentioned, you should not let 4 ounces (actually a lot less) to land on you. The Classics say "人剛我柔謂之走,我順人背謂之黏" Paul Brennan translates it as such: "He is hard while I am soft – this is yielding. My energy is smooth while his energy is coarse – this is sticking." Some subtleties are lost with the translation, but it's late and I can't do better right now, so there it goes.

As for Ti Fang, my only comment is that IMHO there is no push/pull, it's all about Ting Jin, using Yi, Qi, and Shen.

My humble opinions.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:58 am

richardman wrote:As for Ti Fang, my only comment is that IMHO there is no push/pull, it's all about Ting Jin, using Yi, Qi, and Shen.


Agree that pushing/pulling might lead to misunderstanding.

In Tai Chi Chuan:
Pushing = filling a gap
Pulling = adding to movement
Both is following = using tingjin.

Yi, qi and shen is there as always, nothing different or extraordinary for tifang, imho.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:24 am

The push/pull ti fang method he demos is similar to but explained differently than a concept I've learned known as the vertical circle in your opponent.

I agree it's not so much a push and a pull as it is a "push" (some resistance in a place, usually higher on the body) then a yield and a slight lowering that the opponent will spring into naturally if they're resisting the seed push, this places their weight on top of your hands, their root is cut, and it's very easy to push them out. It's kind of freaky how somebody can be like a mighty oak on that first contact, but come peeling up like an unglued vinyl sticker after the yield.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby richardman on Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:28 am

Bao wrote:Yi, qi and shen is there as always, nothing different or extraordinary for tifang, imho.


Yes of course. I just want to emphasize that it has very little to do with "physical" movements (yes, of course there are "physical movements", we are not dead wood :-) )
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