Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby GrahamB on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:14 pm

Stephen,

Thanks - I am partial to a fine stout, although obviously the further you get from the banks of the Liffey, the worst it tastes! If you're ever over in the UK in the Bath area then pop in for one over here :)

1. Fa Jin
I think I could sum up what I'm trying to say is to do with emphasis - i.e. in the idea that "Ti Fang" isn't the No.1 method of doing an "attack" or Fa in Tai Chi (to me at least) but just one of a number of skills that exist in push hands. (i.e. it's not Tai Chi's SECRET, but just one of the many skills that make it up).

There are videos of Yang style people in the family line doing Fa Jin and Ti Fang is just one of them. e.g. :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVCYDMbcsnI

2. I Ti Fang, you Ti Fang, we all Ti Fang

It also occurred to me that I'd made my own "Ti Fang" video all those years ago! I hadn't connected the dots to what you are talking about because my teacher never used the Chinese phrase "Ti Fang" to describe it, so it took me a while to make the connection - he just used to call it "bounce" which was a type of "uprooting" and saw it as simply one aspect of Peng jin. Here's how I do/did it first in push hands, then with strikes (which I think is a more obvious example of soft overcoming hard than when people do push hands):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVCYDMbcsnI

That video is old, so I'd probably update a few things I said or did slightly now, but that's the general idea.

3. Soft overcomes hard

Finally, don't worry, I think the idea that a small force can overcome a large force (soft overcomes hard, etc) is alive and well in many martial arts - they just all have different names for it, which is where the confusion arrises. If you realise that this is essentially what is behind "leverage" then you see it's everywhere.

Slàinte,
Graham
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:44 am

3. Soft overcomes hard

Finally, don't worry, I think the idea that a small force can overcome a large force (soft overcomes hard, etc) is alive and well in many martial arts - they just all have different names for it, which is where the confusion arrises. If you realise that this is essentially what is behind "leverage" then you see it's everywhere.


In traditional western boxing, this is called: "Letting the opponent run into your fist".
In wrestling: "It doesn't take much to help the opponent to trip."

Learning to be there in the moment and learning how to take advantage of the opponent's own weaknesses of movement and lack of stability is much of what Tai Chi practice is all about. Many external practitioners, as well as boxers and wrestlers turn to tai chi to learn the practice of timing inherited in this art and understanding better how to deal with body movement.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:43 am

GrahamB wrote:Stephen,
Thanks - I am partial to a fine stout, although obviously the further you get from the banks of the Liffey, the worst it tastes! If you're ever over in the UK in the Bath area then pop in for one over here :)


Thanks Graham!

GrahamB wrote:1. Fa Jin
I think I could sum up what I'm trying to say is to do with emphasis - i.e. in the idea that "Ti Fang" isn't the No.1 method of doing an "attack" or Fa in Tai Chi (to me at least) but just one of a number of skills that exist in push hands. (i.e. it's not Tai Chi's SECRET, but just one of the many skills that make it up).


As long as the "other methods" are Tai Chi, that is, they are techniques that abide by the Tai Chi Classics using "no speed, no strength, and (literally) four ounces" then I am good with it!

GrahamB wrote:There are videos of Yang style people in the family line doing Fa Jin and Ti Fang is just one of them. e.g. :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVCYDMbcsnI


The two links in your message are the same, was that on purpose?

GrahamB wrote:2. I Ti Fang, you Ti Fang, we all Ti Fang

It also occurred to me that I'd made my own "Ti Fang" video all those years ago! I hadn't connected the dots to what you are talking about because my teacher never used the Chinese phrase "Ti Fang" to describe it, so it took me a while to make the connection - he just used to call it "bounce" which was a type of "uprooting" and saw it as simply one aspect of Peng jin. Here's how I do/did it first in push hands, then with strikes (which I think is a more obvious example of soft overcoming hard than when people do push hands): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVCYDMbcsnI That video is old, so I'd probably update a few things I said or did slightly now, but that's the general idea.


Respectfully, that is "bouncing" not "Ti Fang". This might be a better visual representation of what I am trying, fecklessly, to describe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLZI4peNR4

Although the following quote is about "receiving" (which is Ti Fang at its height), I think the comments about "bouncing" are applicable and illuminating: "The explanation of chieh chin is found through the analogy of someone throwing a ball to hit me. If I resist the ball or hit it, it will bounce out. This is the chin of colliding and is not chieh chin. If the ball is light, it will be easy to bounce it out. However, if the ball's weight is several hundred pounds, how can I bounce it out? Hence, colliding is not correct. You must attract it and then toss it out. This is chieh chin. If the ball is moving slow or fast, or is light or heavy it is still the same. Chan [adhere], t'ing [listen], t'i [raise, 提], fang [discharge] are all in it. Combine attraction and discharge almost simultaneously. The power is intensified in a very small space. This almost attains the highest wisdom in which San Shou becomes meaningless. Therefore, I say nothing can replace T'ai Chi Ch'uan. It is the supreme. Besides chieh chin there is nothing else. (13 Treatises, Lo/Inn, pg 204.1)

GrahamB wrote:3. Soft overcomes hard

Finally, don't worry, I think the idea that a small force can overcome a large force (soft overcomes hard, etc) is alive and well in many martial arts - they just all have different names for it, which is where the confusion arrises. If you realise that this is essentially what is behind "leverage" then you see it's everywhere.


Ha ha! You are correct Graham! If I thought Ti Fang was just leverage, then I would see it all over the place. The thing about the lever is that your are doing the same amount of work as you would without the lever— "...levers neither increase nor decrease the amount of total effort necessary. Instead, they make the work easier by spreading out the effort over a longer distance [time]." http://www.sheknows.com/living/articles/1028977/how-do-levers-work. Yet, we do not have the luxury of more time in the moment.

The secret of Ti Fang is not about increasing our force (nor strength, nor speed, nor leverage); rather, it is about decreasing the other's ability to resist our push (AKA: severing their root, AKA: "attract into emptiness and join", AKA: "Ti"). If this is done, then our Push meets no resistance and is no more then pushing a child in a swing!

GrahamB wrote:Slàinte,
Graham


do dheagh shlàinte
Stephen : )
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby GrahamB on Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:51 am

Oops - sorry - the Yang Fa Jin video was supposed to be this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvawGWNFuA0

So, 'bouncing' is not 'Ti Fang' - but does it have a Chinese name?

Thanks,
G
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:49 am

The secret of Ti Fang is not about increasing our force (nor strength, nor speed, nor leverage); rather, it is about decreasing the other's ability to resist our push (AKA: severing their root, AKA: "attract into emptiness and join", AKA: "Ti"). If this is done, then our Push meets no resistance and is no more then pushing a child in a swing!


"Attract into emptiness" is, IMO, not the same as "ti". You can attract anyone into emptiness by leading... if they offer their balance. But what if they do not?

Ti is lifting up their root or taking balance, which is something different than "lead", and is something you sometimes can do before they, or must do if they won't, offer their balance. For "normal" people, there is not much difference between the two, but if a person is very heavy, or have practiced their stability, i.e. having a developed root and is immovable, there's sometimes quite a big difference. You can compare this to unbalancing something that is heavy but balancing on top of a stick, to a big sack of potatoes lying on the ground that needs to be lifted.

Just look at Master Zheng Manqing. He is a small guy but can send away people far. But he does actually go quite close, into his opponents.

1.17 and 1.55 are good examples here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis


You can see it even more evident when he plays with western students:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1roStUDVzv0


Or look at Fu Shengyuan, the same close physical contact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8RNgsoyJv8


Or look at the "Dong PH clip", you'll find the same there.

I like these clips, they look more "physical" than many other vids out there. There's a very evident contact and there is not much the attitude from the student's of "Being kind" and "respectful".

I have had a few meetings the last year that reminded me about that leading into emptiness sometimes is not easy if you play against someone heavy and experienced. Then you need another skill, IMHO, this is "t'i" or lift. I enjoyed very much playing with Bruce (yup, the legendary TNT starter here on RSF. ;D ) the last year, a very heavy fellow with a lot experience. Not easy to play with. He kindly reminded me about the analogy of pushing a large ball straight into water, trying to find the center and keep the pressure on the center when pushing. "Ti" or lift can be very much similar to this. But now with something that won't play along and makes everything to prevent you to find this center. If you think about this, "ti" can be very difficult and it's in it's own right a very different from "Leading". In my own view, "ti" or lift, practically speaking, is finding the opponent's center and make him balance on his toes or heels.

... I think I'm going to make a blog post on this issue. Not easy to discuss anything properly in the official "Graham making friends with Stephen thread"... :P
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Ron Panunto on Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:39 am

In order to make tifang work you have to take a step forward into your opponents space, then lift and push.
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:53 pm

Bao wrote:
SJGoodson wrote:The secret of Ti Fang is not about increasing our force (nor strength, nor speed, nor leverage); rather, it is about decreasing the other's ability to resist our push (AKA: severing their root, AKA: "attract into emptiness and join", AKA: "Ti"). If this is done, then our Push meets no resistance and is no more then pushing a child in a swing!

"Attract into emptiness" is, IMO, not the same as "ti". You can attract anyone into emptiness by leading... if they offer their balance.


Well, I sort-a agree, Ti is to "attract into emptiness and join", as in "Attract into emptiness, join and discharge". Fang would be the discharge. Li I-yu put it this way: Because the inhalation can naturally raise and also uproot the opponent, the exhalation can naturally sink down and also discharge him. {5 Character Secret} Here is Chen Weiming on the subject: What is lifting energy? (提勁) When sticking to an opponent’s arm, if he uses effort to turn it over upward, I follow it by lifting upward, causing his heels to lift. {From Da Wen}. So, his heals coming up means that he is coming at us, thus our "lift" 'carries' him, or "attract him into emptiness and Join" with him or simply put, we "Ti'" him. See the last question in 13 Treatises (Lo/Inn) to see Professor Cheng say, "Attract to emptiness, absorb, and discharge", "This is explained by Ti Fang".

I think that there is an historical thread here that points to 'Ti' being something done as they are advancing, and it is before our pushing. We Offset and then Push; Attract into emptiness and join, then discharge; or Ti and then Fang.


Bao wrote:But what if they do not?


How can you "use four ounces to deflect 1000 pounds"? It is accomplished by causing the weight at the opponent's center of gravity to be off balance. (13T, Lo/Inn, Pg25.1) Notice that is isn't that the other is grossly off balance and falling all over themselves. It is a very small movement. Since we only need them to resist just a smidgen over four ounces, a "projection" (vs. a "hollow"), just until a line of force, a "direction", is first established, then we withdraw; the extremely subtle withdraw triggers their falling reflexes at the lowest threshold. Thus, they will, always and without a doubt be offset. There really is not an if to it. We have all slipped on ice, and are thrown off balance when a door is pulled as we push on it, and we have all missed that last step and fell onto the landing—it is beyond our control.

Bao wrote:Ti is lifting up their root or taking balance, which is something different than "lead", and is something you sometimes can do before they, or must do if they won't, offer their balance. For "normal" people, there is not much difference between the two, but if a person is very heavy, or have practiced their stability, i.e. having a developed root and is immovable, there's sometimes quite a big difference. You can compare this to unbalancing something that is heavy but balancing on top of a stick, to a big sack of potatoes lying on the ground that needs to be lifted.


Their size does not matter, I have Ti Fanged a 300lb gentleman biker friend. Root does not matter, we sever their root. The technique works at the threshold of being off balance so their size nor weight matter. It can be done against their strongest line of resistance.

Image

It was good to meet you Bao.

Sincerely,
Stephen : )
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:10 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:In order to make tifang work you have to take a step forward into your opponents space, then lift and push.

Respectfully, I must disagree. See my Ti Fang video 12:17 to 15:16 (see the first post on this thread), or read my Ti Fang article (ibid.) or watch the video below of Mr. Steve Rose doing Ti Fang as taught to him by his teacher Tam Gibbs.

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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:27 pm

SJGoodson wrote:It is accomplished by causing the weight at the opponent's center of gravity to be off balance. (13T, Lo/Inn, Pg25.1) Notice that is isn't that the other is grossly off balance and falling all over themselves. It is a very small movement.


Their size does not matter, I have Ti Fanged a 300lb gentleman biker friend. Root does not matter, we sever their root. The technique works at the threshold of being off balance so their size nor weight matter. It can be done against their strongest line of resistance.



Well, that's the idea... that size or weight does not matter. Yet there are counter skills in tai chi and for some people these come quite natural.

Size and weight actually does matter in this respect. A low center of gravity on a broad base compared to a high center of gravity on a narrow base, takes a longer, bigger movement to topple, to "cause the weight at the opponent's center of gravity to be off balance." Now you need to either use his movement (lead/sui) or lift and carry (lift/ti) this weight over the angle of stability. If the body has substantial weight, even if the movement is small and it goes very fast, you sometimes need to really "lift" the body through the point of stability to the point of non-stability. It takes a little more effort than on a "normal" body. And now, if some has skill, he will constantly move and shift his center of gravity. Because you need a longer movement to topple his weight than a "common" person, well, size and weight does matter and can make it more difficult just because there will be a longer time from having balance and being off balanced together with the fact that you need to find a way to carry the body over the point of stability. If he won't give away his dead angles, well, yes it will take a slightly more effort and feel a bit different than against a "common" person. If you went against someone as He Jinbao or Sam Chin and tried tifang on them, I would believe that this difference that I am speaking about would become very evident.

...

Likewise. :)
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:24 am

Bao wrote:Well, that's the idea... that size or weight does not matter.


Perfect! Size and weight are not supposed to matter. Why? Because both of them are a major part of the other's strength. And his strength, in this case, is his ability to resist our push. That's what Root is, ultimately, the ability to resist.

The TCC Classics say that, "...we sever their root and they can be thrown out decisively."

Since we agree on that, the question is, "How is it done?" Is it that we, the pusher in this case, have great strength? "No!" The Classics tell us "no speed" and "no strength" and "four ounces" of contact. Our strength is not the answer.

The answer seems counterintuitive. If we can't use strength how can we sever their root? How can we Ti (lift them up) and Fang (throw them out!)? And even if we figure out HOW it can be done (the "knack", as it were), we still need to figure out how to train it.

Answer, it can't be done!! Unless we are wrong about something.


Let's go for a walk:

Professor Cheng wrote, "Each time [Yang Cheng-fu] spoke, he reiterated to me, 'If I don't tell you, even in three lifetimes you will not easily get it.' (13 Treatises, Lo/Inn, pg 87.2)

"Even after examining the Classics of T'ai Chi Ch'uan many times, I still did not understand them until I received my teacher's instruction. Then I realized it had a particular method. Without the guidance of oral instructions, it was impossible to understand." (Ibid., pg 93.2)

"Cheng said that he had left the secret of T'ai-chi out of his Cheng Tzu's T'ai-chi Chu'an Shih-san P'ien (Cheng's Thirteen Chapters on T'ai-chi Boxing) to prevent the outside world from getting it. It was simply this: never put more than four ounces of energy on your opponent and never let him put more than four ounces on you. Indeed the old axiom of defeating one thousand pounds with four ounces of trigger force means that you never receive one thousand pounds. If this is followed, Cheng said, mastery will come. Few follow it." (Chinese Boxing, Smith, pg 30.4)

The Classics put it this way, using four ounces, "by alternating pushing and pulling we sever the root". Also, "Attract into emptiness and join". If we want to attract something towards us, we can slightly push on it, and it will spring back at us. Think: Balloon on a wall. Press on it to compress it a bit and then quickly pull away—the balloon jumps off the wall at you! Thus, By alternating pushing and pulling you have attracted it into the emptiness of the space we were just in.

Mr. Smith put it this way, "Say you are attacked with one hundred pounds of force frontally. Using T'ai chi, you withdraw slightly and neutralize our opponent's rush. If he cannot check his momentum he will go over his toes. A slight pull is enough to bring him down. If, however, he seen his error, checks his forward impetus, and withdraws backward, the incoming and outgoing forces cancel each other, and, by applying but five pounds of force on the line of his retreating body, you will topple him easy. (CB, Smith, pg 27.5)

Reflecting after our walk:

Maybe "Ti" is not "to lift them up" but more aligned to "attract into emptiness and join". Then they would be affected as if lifted. In this way they are leaning on us just the smallest amount but have a rearward yearning (reflexively pulling back ever so slightly) because they have not fully rooted in their feet. They have delivered their 'center' into our hands and are reflexively pulling backwards. It's like standing on the edge of a precipice and looking over the edge. Although you are desiring to go further forward to see over the edge, your body is reflexively pulling backwards so you do not go over. You look like a ski jumper! http://www.h2b.co.nz/blog/wp-content/uploads/IMG_3791.jpg In this position you cannot resist a push from the front.

Once their ability to resist is taken away, how are they anything harder to push than a child in a swing?


Practicing the Ti Fang exercise, as described, helps one grasp the subtleties of the technique. Once you can do it at will, try it with your partner middle and then front weighted. http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/2015/12/8/notes-on-the-tai-chi-training-method-called-ti-fang

Image

I am not sure if this helped, maybe it can't be explained; or as my friend Billy Fox wrote, "Without hands-on instruction, it might very well be impossible to transmit these ideas. Being aware of that, we have tried to present the material as cogently as possible." (Dalu, Goodson/Fox, pg 53) I tried.

Sincerely,
Stephen : )
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:38 am

SJGoodson wrote:
Bao wrote:Well, that's the idea... that size or weight does not matter.


Perfect! Size and weight are not supposed to matter. Why? Because both of them are a major part of the other's strength. And his strength, in this case, is his ability to resist our push. That's what Root is, ultimately, the ability to resist.

The TCC Classics say that, "...we sever their root and they can be thrown out decisively."

Since we agree on that...


No, we don't agree. The theory is fine. But still, it's limited to an ideal. Reality is more complicated complicated and there are defensive skills. Again, for some people these counter skills come more natural than others.

And I don't agree about "rooting". Rooting is a skill to make oneself unmovable and adjust the posture in a favorable position according to the opponent. It's not the same as resisting. There are weak, undeveloped roots and strong developed roots. Going against the two are not the same. It's also a question about being offered something to use or not. You simply can not take what is not there.

I think I have said everything I can in the posts above. I will just post another vid. Anyone can see what happens when two skillful practitioners meet... No, lifting or following is not always so easy, not even for the "masters"...



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_4T4r_TDvmI

Btw... I have 30 years of experience of T'ai Chi Ch'uan, so personally, I need no lectures. Though I don't take anything personal as this is a discussion board and we all write in a more general manner addressing all readers. But I can say that I have tossed away quite big fellows and met many big heavy people in push hands. Every meeting is different and you need to handle everyone differently. There is no one solution fits all. And tifang is not "one size fits all" kind of solution. There are good principles to learn by practicing the methods you show. But it's not the kind of secret that will work anytime on anyone. It has it's own restrictions just like anything else. ;)
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:24 pm

Bao wrote:
SJGoodson wrote:
Bao wrote:Well, that's the idea... that size or weight does not matter.

And I don't agree about "rooting". Rooting is a skill to make oneself unmovable and adjust the posture in a favorable position according to the opponent. It's not the same as resisting.

Hi Bao,

You might be right, we may have come to an end to our ability to discuss this topic. When you say that Rooting isn't resisting, it is being unmovable, I have to wonder what other fresh contronyms you may be using of which I am unaware.

Bao wrote:I think I have said everything I can in the posts above. I will just post another vid. Anyone can see what happens when two skillful practitioners meet... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4T4r_TDvmI

That is not the Grasp Sparrows Tail exercise. They start off doing it, but then abandon it to do some fun 'restlin. The Competition Push Hands champion Josh Waitzkin's experience in that world speaks volumes about how "real" it is. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Learning-Journey-Optimal-Performance/dp/0743277465/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1474657011&sr=8-1&keywords=Josh+Waitzkin

If one reads the following article carefully and then watches the video above, one will see all these techniques being used.
http://www.fairtradetaichi.org/news/2015/12/8/the-five-principles-of-competition-push-hands


Bao wrote:Btw... I have 30 years of experience of T'ai Chi Ch'uan, so personally, I need no lectures. Though I don't take anything personal as this is a discussion board and we all write in a more general manner addressing all readers. But I can say that I have tossed away quite big fellows and met many big heavy people in push hands. Every meeting is different and you need to handle everyone differently. There is no one solution fits all. And tifang is not "one size fits all" kind of solution. There are good principles to learn by practicing the methods you show. But it's not the kind of secret that will work anytime on anyone. It has it's own restrictions just like anything else. ;)


Bao, it's been fun chatting with you.

Be well,
兄 Stephen : )
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby Bao on Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:27 am

SJGoodson wrote:You might be right, we may have come to an end to our ability to discuss this topic. When you say that Rooting isn't resisting, it is being unmovable, I have to wonder what other fresh contronyms you may be using of which I am unaware.


It might just be a choice of words... But I don't really like the word "resist". Anyone can use strength to resist. Rooting is a developed skill. Rooting and the ability to be more or less immovable comes from sinking and relaxing, something that is rather the opposite to what I associate with "resisting".

SJGoodson wrote:Bao, it's been fun chatting with you.
Be well,
兄 Stephen : )


Likewise and the same to you Stephen
Cheers!
/David
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby SJGoodson on Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:09 pm

Bao wrote:
SJGoodson wrote:You might be right, we may have come to an end to our ability to discuss this topic. When you say that Rooting isn't resisting, it is being unmovable, I have to wonder what other fresh contronyms you may be using of which I am unaware.

It might just be a choice of words... But I don't really like the word "resist". Anyone can use strength to resist. Rooting is a developed skill. Rooting and the ability to be more or less immovable comes from sinking and relaxing, something that is rather the opposite to what I associate with "resisting".


No Resistance, no letting go.
I was always taught that resistance, by any name, in any style, anything more than four ounces, is an error.

This is not just "by the rules, 'wrong'," rather, it is wrong because it is exactly what the other needs to Ti Fang us. So the 'error' is real and it is our down fall (pun intended!).

If attract into emptiness, join and discharge is a real technique done from four ounces that can sever their root and throw them out decisively:


And, if, as Professor Cheng stated, stealing from the Classics, that the secret was to train at 4 ounces (Chinese Boxing, Smith, pg 30.4) then why on earth would we ever put more against our partner... no matter what we called it!?

Again, me just trying to make space in you mind that maybe the Classics were literal statements.

Go softly,
Stephen : )
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Re: Tai Chi's Secret: Ti Fang — Stephen J. Goodson

Postby richardg6 on Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:29 pm

兄 Stephen;

Thank you for your effort and patience. I have learned things from various internal styles that were not taught in my style and have been a fan of CMC and Mr Smith since 72. Love chess too.

Thanks,
Richard
richardg6
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