Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 04, 2017 5:11 am

I think Xu needs to get out of China before they lock him up...

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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby windwalker on Thu May 04, 2017 6:30 am

Take a simple thing like padwork; there's nothing in the world that I've experienced that improves your striking level like padwork for example. Is that "Sanda"?
No, and neither is it traditional. These CMA "fighters" you think are great have probably never done much padwork if at all; I think neither you or they have a clue how much better a fighting level could be if done regularly as well as sparring with boxing gloves etc. Obviously there are those who do appreciate things like that and are open to it..

With traditional stuff it's the integration side that needs to be taken care of carefully. Sport and traditional can integrate just fine, it's the people that want to resist that for whatever reason that will find any amount of nonsense to convince themselves what a terrible idea it is..


While I think I understand your post, I wonder about the type of CMA you've been exposed too.
Of the CMA styles I've been exposed to they trained very similar to any other type of training that one was expected to use and be functional with.
For those who competed they trained for the comp, just as any other person would adjusting and adapting to what ever rule set used at the time.

CMA are very distinctive having a certain flavor if you will. Back in the day that flavor served the "fighters" of the day very well...
with styles and methods evolving as needed. I doubt that the CMA styles considered to be "fighting styles" will put people in a ring were all things
are made equal as much as possible.

I do think its a mistake not to take them seriously.

Some here seem to be trying to judge things based on a TV program.
A TV program.....think about it. ;)

Do genuine masters really withhold their best techniques from their students? According to Grandmaster David Chin, they do. "The old traditional masters, they were so protective of themselves," comments Chin. "They made sure they could make a living. They didn't want the students to compete against them."

In ancient times, a kung fu master's art was his livelihood, so they were always vigilant against potential traitors. While few still earn all of their living from martial arts, the tradition of secrecy continues to create swirling controversies.

In many traditions, keeping secrets is inherent, not just from students but also from the government. With our own national security now wrestling with the touchy issue of personal privacy, it's worth examining how our martial forefathers hid the arts underground. These subversive masters were catalysts for evolution.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/ ... rticle=661

No matter what is said publicly or rules put in place,,,,for those schools who are for the public, it might help to protect them...

Those not for the public it doesn't matter,
never did 8-)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 04, 2017 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 04, 2017 7:16 am

Just released by the Chinese Wushu Association in response to Madman Xu. Translation:
Chinese Wushu Association sends this note to all provincial, local/municipal associations, saying such fights are against Martial Virtue, against the law, and hence firmly opposes them. Then there is blur about how it want CMA to develop in a healthy manner, and will soon release guide lines to stop this "chaos", and normalize it. All localChinese Wushu Associations should take up measures to put an end to such events in the future.


I was hoping the Wushu Association in China would have more balls than that. Apparently, they are doing this to avoid any potential further loss of face under the pretense of "preserving martial virtue." ::)

Besides, I don't think there is anything illegal about challenge matches if they are conducted in the format of sports fighting competition.


P.S. As a native speaker of Chinese, I can tell you the stuff on that official statement reads like a bunch of baloney.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby cloudz on Thu May 04, 2017 8:41 am

windwalker wrote:
While I think I understand your post, I wonder about the type of CMA you've been exposed too.


Yea it's always about "us lot" being starved if authentic CMA and what we have been exposed to or not. pretty much always. It's 2017.
Show me the video of TCMA lineages training their stuff on padwork that's in any way comparable to what I'm talking about and then let's see them fight with it just like boxers, sanda MMA, MT etc do.

Of course some guys train with them that wasn't the damn point man!

To be honest I think the rest of the post is irrelivent to what I was really saying and it's just what you want to say. I don't really have a problem with it.
We talk past eachother when you do that, that's all.
However all these things end up in TCMA being embarrassed in it's own backyard so get one of these bad ass's to step up already or drop it out with me.

Your apologetics and examples are besides the point and get annoying - respectfully.
Or let's just accept between us that as it is TCMA is largely antiquated for modern day trained fighting.

If so why go up against trained fighters and embarrass your whole fucking art. So let's stop excusing the deluded please and call a spade a spade. At least leave it to someone who has thrown a punch in anger before. If I see too many more of these video I'll have a damn coronary David.

FFS
Last edited by cloudz on Thu May 04, 2017 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby windwalker on Thu May 04, 2017 12:32 pm

Yea it's always about "us lot" being starved if authentic CMA and what we have been exposed to or not. pretty much always. It's 2017.
Show me the video of TCMA lineages training their stuff on padwork that's in any way comparable to what I'm talking about and then let's see them fight with it just like boxers, sanda MMA, MT etc do.






check out the clip
http://www.chrisheintzmankungfu.com/wp- ... 00.mp4?_=1

shows the pad work you asked about. ;)

http://www.chrisheintzmankungfu.com/

We are a Traditional Chinese Kung Fu School and MMA Gym. We have programs for kids and adults. Sifu Chris Heintzman has been training with Grandmaster David Chin for more than 20 years and continues to do so today. We do not concentrate on flowery forms – as the old saying goes, “brocade leg and plum flower fist”. The meaning is that it looks beautiful but is quite flimsy. We concentrate on combat effective techniques and the conditioning required for their development and implementation.


Students will train in several different systems along the path of study. Our school focuses on developing the complete martial artist. By that, we mean a student will not only learn destructive boxing technique but also methods of self healing. Students will learn effective kung fu that will be applicable in or out of the ring.


Mike one of my first teachers trained under Gorge Long, "white crane" and David Chin. "lama hop gar"
He along with another teacher Gary Fung taught at a small gym in the city long ago.Image

Gary would later go on to prep for a full contact match of the day....Hop Gar was and is considered a "fighting" style
In the 70s there wasn't so much ground work. Times change

If so why go up against trained fighters and embarrass your whole fucking art. So let's stop excusing the deluded please and call a spade a spade. At least leave it to someone who has thrown a punch in anger before. If I see too many more of these video I'll have a damn coronary David.


The teacher in question made a mistake as many do.

take care my friend,
I really get what your saying.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 04, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 04, 2017 2:50 pm

The main problem in traditional arts today is the raw material
When I came off the streets in 1973 Kung fu was the deadliest thing around
Established street fighters went to these arts to increase their arsenal
Today they go to MMA
a lot of people train in the school a couple of times a week and do little other training
I was playing rugby union on Saturday rugby league on Sunday and training them 4 times a week
All I wanted when I started training tang shou Tao was to make it through the workout
It was hard
Give me the choice of guys going to MMA and I will give you guys who can win fights using only traditional arts
Thai Keik Malaysia got its reputation through knocking down sign boards of other schools
Chock Seng kam and Lou tong Bao took on all comers from both Chinese and Malay arts
Their students also fought in south East Asian boxing championships (Kung fu) and won
They adopted traditional arts to fit that format
Bags were always used and tai chi was practiced in a number of straight line repative forms
Like rollback press going down the hall
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby C.J.W. on Thu May 04, 2017 4:33 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The main problem in traditional arts today is the raw material
When I came off the streets in 1973 Kung fu was the deadliest thing around
Established street fighters went to these arts to increase their arsenal
Today they go to MMA
a lot of people train in the school a couple of times a week and do little other training
I was playing rugby union on Saturday rugby league on Sunday and training them 4 times a week
All I wanted when I started training tang shou Tao was to make it through the workout
It was hard
Give me the choice of guys going to MMA and I will give you guys who can win fights using only traditional arts
Thai Keik Malaysia got its reputation through knocking down sign boards of other schools
Chock Seng kam and Lou tong Bao took on all comers from both Chinese and Malay arts
Their students also fought in south East Asian boxing championships (Kung fu) and won
They adopted traditional arts to fit that format
Bags were always used and tai chi was practiced in a number of straight line repative forms
Like rollback press going down the hall


True.

The quick and easy solution to improve the status quo, IMO, would be for CMAists to start focusing more on live sparring, grappling, and other forms of free-exchange with both CMA and non-CMA practitioners. Reality checks usually wake people up fast.

Bubbles must be burst and dreams shattered before real changes take place.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Thu May 04, 2017 5:41 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Their students also fought in south East Asian boxing championships (Kung fu) and won
They adopted traditional arts to fit that format
Bags were always used and tai chi was practiced in a number of straight line repative forms
Like rollback press going down the hall

Boxing has the "shoulder roll." Would you consider this the same as "lu" (rollback) and "ji" (press)?

Would anyone say tai chi's rollback press is a different concept, excluding the power generation, alignment, structure? If different, how would it be used in sparring/competition?

I see boxing and MMA as using similar concepts to IMA (e.g., handling incoming force), in an efficient form (e.g., small, fast movements). Also, the same concepts are trained differently (e.g., push hands vs pad work).

Published on Mar 6, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xZbdCTDBRc

marvin8 wrote:Here's a boxer that keeps his feet in place, softens his back hip transferring weight to back leg, moving his center offline avoiding the attack, then shifts his weight forward finishing opponent: :)
Image]
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu May 04, 2017 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby everything on Thu May 04, 2017 5:51 pm

rollback is energy to roll an incoming force back toward your rear, so shoulder roll is a great "application" (and the technique is not in taijiquan, but so what; the general "energy" becomes easy to understand super fast). rollback is probably in every single MA ever. nevermind qi, peng, blah blah blah. I mean the common sense definition.
Last edited by everything on Thu May 04, 2017 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Strange on Thu May 04, 2017 6:13 pm

http://item.btime.com/44bp6hhujba9ftaq69bg2bhh2uh

MMA guys uses his fist to defeat taiji guy
then these guys build human wall, make writing on paper,
and human words
hee hee hee hee
another one in broad daylight, with eye open and do not
know where they are standing :D
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 04, 2017 9:04 pm

I wasn't referring to western boxing
The main Kung fu tournament was called the south East Asian boxing tournament
Yes a shoulder roll is roll back
In the 50/60's in Sydney there was an old boxer who made the rounds of inner city pubs
He would stand on a mans handkerchief and if anyone could hit him he would buy them a beer if not they would buy him one
He went home drunk each night
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby phil b on Thu May 04, 2017 9:24 pm

Amazing that this generates so much discussion, and not just on this board.

A guy who has fallen for the hype generated by a fake TV show tries his hand against a fighter with predictable results, including the post butchery interview claims that he could've killed the MMA guy and thus, taking the beating in public was for the greater good.

Makes me wonder why BJJ, Muay Thai, etc. are so popular.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby windwalker on Thu May 04, 2017 9:40 pm

phil b wrote:Amazing that this generates so much discussion, and not just on this board.

A guy who has fallen for the hype generated by a fake TV show tries his hand against a fighter with predictable results, including the post butchery interview claims that he could've killed the MMA guy and thus, taking the beating in public was for the greater good.

Makes me wonder why BJJ, Muay Thai, etc. are so popular.


The real story will be how the MMA guy turns down the CMA fighters that will come and challenge him
for "money" both in HK and Taiwan.
This will happen....if not already.....just a matter of time. :-\

The MMA guy had a good marketing plan, lets see how long stays in the market.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu May 04, 2017 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby phil b on Thu May 04, 2017 10:41 pm

windwalker wrote:
The real story will be how the MMA guy turns down the CMA fighters that will come and challenge him
for "money" both in HK and Taiwan.
This will happen....if not already.....just a matter of time. :-\

The MMA guy had a good marketing plan, lets see how long stays in the market.


As someone who has spent a long time in traditional CMA I am all up for that. A traditional CMA fighter beating an MMA fighter, regardless of caliber, would be good for CMA. However, I don't see that happening. If it was going to happen, it would have happened years ago. Instead the "too deadly" bs is recycled to this day.

As an aside, I don't think it is about sparring. I have done very little sparring in my traditional training, yet I have had encounters and held my own. Hard, tedious training was the order of the day and paid dividends. That said, if you are talking of competing on a regular basis, sparring is a must.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 04, 2017 11:37 pm

Guys - this is by far the best thing you will read about the whole affair - tremendous article by Ben Judkins of Kung Fu Tea. If you want the links you need to go to the original, but here's the first bit of the text:

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2017/ ... tial-arts/

By Popular Demand: “Tradition” vs. “Modernity” in the Chinese Martial Arts


An Old Story



It is a pattern that we know well. After a debate about the utility of the traditional martial arts (and what that suggests about the state of the Chinese body politic), things got ugly. The conversation descended into public taunts amplified by the media. Students of Taijiquan, the most popular traditional style practiced in China, felt that they had to defend the honor of their system from a group of upstart fighters who seemed to have no regard for the nation’s culture. Champions were chosen and a fight was arranged in front of a national audience. But it was over all too quickly. The master of Taijiquan was left bloodied and battered in front of a stunned audience.



The media immediately went to work. What did this embarrassing defeat suggest about the decline of Taijiquan and the traditional Chinese martial arts more generally? Are its supposed masters frauds? Do the “internal arts” have any future in an increasingly modern world of global competition and fast paced information flows.



The year, of course, was 1928.



As the baseline level of knowledge that informs public debates on Chinese martial arts history had increased, discussions of the first and second National Martial Arts Examinations, staged by the KMT and the Central Guoshu Association, have become more common in the West. These two events have long enjoyed legendary status in China. They have been eulogized in popular publications, films and scholarly papers. They are remembered as the proving grounds from which a generation of martial arts masters emerged.



Lost within the fog of hagiography are some of the serious challenges that plagued these gatherings, including low levels of turnout by China’s diverse martial arts community. Like the Jingwu Association before it, the Central Guoshu Association (even with official government backing) had troubling expanding its influence into the countryside. Nor were period audiences all that impressed with the performances mounted by some of China’s traditional martial artists. Taijiquan faced a public scandal in 1928 when it became clear that its advertised promises failed to deliver results in actual fights. The noted author and martial arts advocate Xiang Kairan devoted much of his 1929 publication “My Experience of Practicing Taiji Boxing” to discussing the various problems that had been exposed through the system’s poor showing in the previous National Martial Arts Examination.

Yet I suspect that few readers clicked on this post hoping to find a discussion of Xiang Kairan’s observations on the Republic period martial arts. Another challenge match has been making waves that are being noticed well beyond the boundaries of the Chinese martial arts community. The South China Morning Post (and many other news outlets) has recently run multiple articles on the recent fight between Chinese MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong and Taiji master Wei Lei. If you have not yet seen video of the fight just follow the link. Trust me, it will not take long.



These sorts of asymmetric match-ups between traditional Chinese martial artists and athletes from the modern combat sports are not particularly rare. A quick search on Youtube will pull up several examples. The same may be true for traditional combat arts of other nations as well. I am not sure as I have never invested the time to do a comprehensive comparative search. But these sorts of fights seem to be a well-established part of the modern dialogue surrounding the Chinese martial arts.



In fact, when this film first came out I debated as to whether I should post it to the Facebook group. Was this real news? It is not just that we have heard this story before, it’s the latest incarnation of an all-time classic.

While watching this fight I found it hard not to think about the efforts of pioneering Chinese martial artists in the United State like Leo Fong who spent much of the 1960s-1970s looking for innovative ways to cross train in Boxing, Judo and Jeet Kune Do. As long as we are in the Bay Area, we should also recall James Yimm Lee’s call for scientific physical training and realistic combat drills in his long simmering feud with the traditionalist T. Y. Wong. And all of that was just a prelude to Bruce Lee’s outspoken attacks on the entire traditional martial arts scene. One could probably put together a similar list of innovators (and rivalries) in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia and Indonesia as well.



There are differences as well as similarities in all three of these time periods. In 1928 the “pure fighters” challenging Taiji’s dominance were students of more combatively inclined external Kung Fu schools. In the 1960s Bruce Lee and others were cross training in systems like boxing, judo, fencing or the Filipino martial arts. In the current era Muay Thai, BJJ and American style MMA camps have moved to the fore. And the explosion of social media has certainly changed the texture and feel of this conversation.



Still, one cannot shake the feeling that we have been here before. An advocate for “realistic” and “modern” approaches to training issues a challenge, “traditionalists” of all stripes line up, and it’s the 1964 Long Beach International Karate Championships all over again. This is a drama that, in one form or another, has been playing out for the better part of a century. And that is ok, because it turns out that it’s a story we love. I have had more readers contact me to ask if I was planning on talking about the recent Xu Xiaodong/Wei Lei fight than any other news story that I can remember.



I am not sure that there is much that is new or noteworthy to say about the fight itself. Clearly Wei was terribly unprepared for the fight. It didn’t look like he had ever done any serious sparring. And to be totally honest, he went down fast enough that I couldn’t even get a decent read on how talented Xu is in absolute, rather than relative, terms.



Yet the more I thought about the event, the more I decided that the most interesting aspect of this fight was not actually the two combatants, but rather the audience that they sought to appeal to. After all, we only heard about this event because many people around the globe decided to talk about it first, which then inspired some major media outlets to start writing stories. And I use the term “story” intentionally, as I expect that many people were fascinated by this event because it seemed to speak to issues that were bigger than the details of Wei’s training regime.

Read the rest of the article here:

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2017/ ... tial-arts/
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