Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby middleway on Wed May 03, 2017 4:09 am

Their philosophy is to compete while they are young, and save the solo form for later years. They have also been "tested" by many other groups in the park, as well as by many visitors from different counties with different forms of martial arts. One year, a member of Gracie’s family from Brazil visited the park. Respect was exchanged between the two parties and the agreement on the rules were made. After three short rounds of free style pushing, Gracie went home with dirt on his back.


Windwalker. Why do you believe this happened and what evidence do you have that it did? 'Gracies' are beaten regularly, i have no problem with that idea, i just wonder why you accept this account.

I always wonder why no one mentions these arts in having to learn how to up their game,
do they need to?


I doubt that those in these arts believe they have to up their game, just like this Tai chi guy didnt and doesnt think he needs too.

The problem that we face is that everything you write or post as 'evidence', is heresay or rumour. It is the account of someone who was there or saw something. You seem to place great faith in the honesty of these claims and in stories passed down, but dismiss videos like the one on this thread. The world has moved on, eye witness testimony is proven to be largely useless and evidence is easier to provide. So stories about a 'Gracie' getting their ass handed too them in this way remain just stories and irrelevant. There are better examples of Gracies getting beaten up by the likes of Sakuraba, the reason they are better examples is that we have a videos of the encounters.

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I don't go to stores that advertise that they don't sell milk.


Exactely. ;)

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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Wed May 03, 2017 4:38 am

The Chen statement was merely a fact. Chen style isn't used on the battlefield -by the Chinese army at least. If it was used in the past, it is only because everyone on the other side was doing something similar. It doesn't mean that someone who studies Chen style can't fight. Otoh, it doesn't mean that the practitioner or the art is the least bit better than any other.

Rob is right that losing is nothing to be ashamed of. But, let's face it. The whole issue is about extraordinary claims made about the effectiveness of an art. It is resented. The legends are meaningless when it comes down to you and the other guy.

I also think that people who've competed or fought (or gotten their butts kicked) tend to have a bit more humility about their ability -even if they have confidence in it.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Wed May 03, 2017 5:00 am

windwalker wrote:My point was that all that one seeks can be found through their own experience.


People watch "fights" for many reasons one being entertainment.

If what one does revolves around defeating others, seems like a hard way to go.
Seems like a better track would be to learn how to defeat ones self.

If one feels they need to watch others outside of what they do trying understand what they do,
not much to say about that.

I understand your point. However, that was not my point:
marvin8 wrote:. . . Then, we can analyze the video and see what CMA techniques, strategies, etc. are different and effective, if any.

If one chooses to isolate oneself, not spar and not watch fight film, one is free to decide.

Studying and learning from fight film is common practice among modern day professional fighters. Especially with the advent of the computer, it's much easier. However, that is not the only thing they do for training.

Here's Tyson and Cus D'amato studying fight film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2lvlvd3tcY

windwalker wrote:Every one has their own path.

As did the Taiji teacher whom ended up with a bloody nose and losing face. He might consider adding to his path, after this experience.

RobP3 wrote:. . . In that case you have to ask how much his training has equipped him for facing real violence. It would seem, not very much. Perhaps, as some posters have already mentioned, because of the "face" or cultural issues, or the way these arts are taught?

GrahamB wrote:His training had definitely made him worse than if he hadn't trained at all, I'd say.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Ian on Wed May 03, 2017 5:25 am

marvin8 wrote:Chen Zhenglei of Chen village trying to end the fun. :'( :(
Guan Nan Wan Wang, 4 hrs ago wrote:Latest update on the Xu Xiaodong's quest to expose fraud in CMA community in China

Yesterday one of the 4 leaders of Chen village, Chen Zhenglei has made an official statement, claiming that Chen style may have been used for combat at some point in history on the battlefield, (which is complete nonsense but that require a different post to clear up), but now the Chen village isn't about fighting anymore, its about promoting health and a way of life.


Do these individuals think people are fucking stupid? -lol-

Just as a side note, the starting price for a Baishi ceremony under any of the Chen 4 warriors is around 200k RMB.


Jesus Christ, please tell me this isn't true. $29,000............for what??
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Ian on Wed May 03, 2017 5:34 am

I refuse to believe that anyone would be idiotic enough to spend that amount just to baishi :D
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby windwalker on Wed May 03, 2017 5:45 am

Windwalker. Why do you believe this happened and what evidence do you have that it did? 'Gracies' are beaten regularly, i have no problem with that idea, i just wonder why you accept this account.


This was written awhile back, the author I read some place has since passed away. RIP.
I have no reason to doubt it, the manor and way it was written was just an accounting not even the main story.
The group he mentions still practice in Peace Park,,and yes they do seem to spend most of their time practicing push hands
they seemed very open to others just stopping by...

I did,,,and would recommend this to anyone looking for PH practice
who visits Taiwan...Very nice people, group with many levels of skill...

I doubt that those in these arts believe they have to up their game, just like this Tai chi guy didn't and doesn't think he needs too.


what ever he thought its up to him,,,my point was that those in other arts don't compete in the current venues and yet the arts among others are considered to be very effective and are for the most part unquestioned and yet the don't compete in MMA "to my knowledge"

The problem that we face is that everything you write or post as 'evidence', is heresay or rumour. It is the account of someone who was there or saw something. You seem to place great faith in the honesty of these claims and in stories passed down,


Not really true I post from fist hand knowledge and experience or post events that show what I have experienced.
I've met people who make the stories of the past very believable, for many of them as I read them they read like true accounting's
of events that happened.

but dismiss videos like the one on this thread. The world has moved on, eye witness testimony is proven to be largely useless and evidence is easier to provide.


The clip on this thread shows someone who tripped and was unable to recover. Maybe he should have, maybe not who knows
lots of fighters get knocked out within 10 sec or less.....does it mean they could not fight?

FWIW as I've said IMO the way taiji as currently practiced has changed many aspects of the art..
I refer to PH competitions.

So stories about a 'Gracie' getting their ass handed too them in this way remain just stories and irrelevant. There are better examples of Gracies getting beaten up by the likes of Sakuraba, the reason they are better examples is that we have a videos of the encounters.


Lots of things happen that are not filmed, my point was that when venues become very specialized, with their own rule sets, someone entering into them is subjected to them no matter who they are. Whether the venues are useful for the the final objective is not always clear. The Gracie, if it was according the the narrative asked to experience something he had not on its terms, kudos for this.
I would imagine that it opened up some things he may not have felt before.

The guy says:

Hes a taiji teacher, true
He lost an event, true

many might feel he is representative of apparently their taiji or all taiji.

Maybe not "their" taiji because as is the case most people feel "their" taiji is the "real" ;)
and go to great lengths to point out others who's taiji is not.

Is he representative of all taiji
not true.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 03, 2017 5:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Wed May 03, 2017 5:49 am

Is this what people really expect? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pm-UlqJm-CE

Here's the first vids I could find of one of the more popular tournaments on the East coast. All the competitors practice "tcma" including tcc. Sometimes the tcc guy wins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjQ_bLECy4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWEUNC7vKDc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv2Ze3rrv_A

This is from China, but would anyone say that the guy is using tcc?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y24difib7ro
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby RobP3 on Wed May 03, 2017 5:55 am

Ian wrote:Jesus Christ, please tell me this isn't true. $29,000............for what??


To buy into the franchise
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby windwalker on Wed May 03, 2017 6:04 am

Image
http://www.ettoday.net/news/20170503/916419.htm


looks like he may visit a local gym in Taiwan...

marketing 101
now he needs to protect his brand and build his market.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed May 03, 2017 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby cloudz on Wed May 03, 2017 6:06 am

This Xu guy having a problem with cross training Sanda is questionable. What's he against the techniques or the training methodology?

He wants to fight traditional guys but doesn't want them training with pads, gloves, bags, sparring - what ?
Or is his problem the throws, kicks and punches and defenses which presumably is missing from Chen style martial arts?

He wants his cake and to eat it. With those conditions no traditional art/ martial artists can compete or stand with him.
Unless they take up the training methods used by combat sports.. be that MT, Sanda, Boxing, MMA, wrestling.
So if these guys cross trained boxing and wrestling it's ok - as long as Sanda wasn't involved ?

I guess we always knew 'bullshido' would finally catch up to China..
The sooner people realizes no person, style or system OWNS or holds rights to ANY of it, the better really.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 03, 2017 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby jaime_g on Wed May 03, 2017 6:35 am

It's very simple for me.

If I claim to have a method to teach and use martial arts, I should be able to test it.
I can test it in a myriad of ways, using a huge syllabus or a specialiced one, no problem with that.
The only thing my method has to achieve is...to allow me to fight against another trained martial artist without being a embarrasment and a disgrace.

That's all.

Anyone can be defeated, anyone can lose, it's ok, it's what happens when despite all your training you are facing another guy that also trains seriously.

But if your method just cant give you even a slight chance of fighting capably, then something is veeeery wrong with your method.

Sure, you can fix weak spots of your method using other approaches, but if your only resource is training in another completely different way, wtf were you doing?

No problem with TMA guys doing sparring, they should do it! The thing is, why did you have to pick sparring from another method??? why wasnt already there?

It's a tragedy seeing such powerful styles, with exceptional bodywork, giving excuses all the time.
Last edited by jaime_g on Wed May 03, 2017 6:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby cloudz on Wed May 03, 2017 6:49 am

jaime_g wrote:


No problem with TMA guys doing sparring, they should do it! The thing is, why did you have to pick sparring from another method??? why wasnt already there?

It's a tragedy seeing such powerful styles, with exceptional bodywork, giving excuses all the time.


why is it picking from another "method" ?
Sparring doesn't belong to any style, it's a training method in of itself.

if you wack gloves on most Chinese styles will effectively be within (or be accomadated by) the ruleset of Sanda if you eliminate the dirty stuff.
This guy wants no rules anyway/protection, so why can't they use the training methods asscociated to combat sports ?
It's a con if you ask me.

As for why not there. I think whether that can be answered and whatver the answer - whilst interesting ends up redundant.
The relevent question is if sparring meets a need for x person or style. If the answer is yes then that's all the answer needed.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 03, 2017 6:52 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby cloudz on Wed May 03, 2017 7:23 am

Who knows how long "kuo shou", "san shou" "lei tei" have been around in the TCMA world. These are all analogous to Sanda. They are all nothing more than rulesets for engagment that include allowable technique, equipment (gloves etc.) and success/ failure parameters.

The optimal training methods for competition have grown and developed in those worlds, but if you don't live or mix in that world then you will barely have developed and use/ have use for that training.

It's perhaps a sad and unpallatable truth, but a vast percentage of TCMA has gone the "lifestyle" route exclusively without keeping a foot in the MA competition world. But given the cultural revolution together with certain aspects of entrenched culture in CMA maybe it's no wonder things have stagnated so much. Both in attitudes and deeds.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed May 03, 2017 7:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby everything on Wed May 03, 2017 8:33 am

Sometimes there is some limited context in which people conclude there is a "best" approach in a sport or activity. In football/soccer, "possession" has been deemed best for a while, but then it suddenly changed and something else came into fashion.

A while back, in a very limited circle (20-50 participants maybe?), it was proven that Gracie jiu-jitsu was "best" (actually mainly one person/representative won his tournaments). A lot of people outside of that circle decided to train it and so on. Eventually everyone put it in a box - a complementary box - helpful for other MA styles.

A while back, in a very limited circle (Tokyo police tournament), supposedly judo was "best". A lot of people outside that circle ended up training it (actually this art more or less pops up as being useful again and again - Fedor, Rousey, etc.) and maybe more train the above derivative/forking of it. Some people find it helpful / complementary.

A while back, in a very limited circle (a village, a palace?), supposedly Yang Lu-Chan was "best" in some limited number of contests. This was only one person, actually, who was "best", not that a "style" was "best", similar to the first case above (Royce from GJJ); a lot of people outside that circle ended up training it (and still train probably derivatives of it). Some (very small number of ) people find it helpful/complementary.

Having one data point of one random guy from a "style" lose to some other random guy from a "style" doesn't prove/disprove anything, but 99.99% of the regular RSF posters already know all this. Personally I find a lot of unique value from GJJ, judo, taijiquan in very specific ways, but none are end-all/be-all "best" and most people here probably do as well (though for many good reasons we disparage those "other" taijiquan practitioners). No idea why we discuss all this stuff we all already know. I guess it somehow stays interesting anyway.
Last edited by everything on Wed May 03, 2017 8:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby grzegorz on Wed May 03, 2017 11:00 am

In all fairness to CMA, MMA attracts people who want to take on these types of challanges therefore the ones who are good fighters figure this out very quickly just within their own community. CMA doesn't have the same amount of vetting, even if you come from a fight school, you don't deal with thousands of people competing for your spot to become professional the way you do with MMA or boxing.
Last edited by grzegorz on Thu May 04, 2017 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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