Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby cloudz on Fri May 05, 2017 2:17 am

windwalker wrote:
Yea it's always about "us lot" being starved if authentic CMA and what we have been exposed to or not. pretty much always. It's 2017.
Show me the video of TCMA lineages training their stuff on padwork that's in any way comparable to what I'm talking about and then let's see them fight with it just like boxers, sanda MMA, MT etc do.






check out the clip
http://www.chrisheintzmankungfu.com/wp- ... 00.mp4?_=1

shows the pad work you asked about. ;)

http://www.chrisheintzmankungfu.com/

We are a Traditional Chinese Kung Fu School and MMA Gym. We have programs for kids and adults. Sifu Chris Heintzman has been training with Grandmaster David Chin for more than 20 years and continues to do so today. We do not concentrate on flowery forms – as the old saying goes, “brocade leg and plum flower fist”. The meaning is that it looks beautiful but is quite flimsy. We concentrate on combat effective techniques and the conditioning required for their development and implementation.


Students will train in several different systems along the path of study. Our school focuses on developing the complete martial artist. By that, we mean a student will not only learn destructive boxing technique but also methods of self healing. Students will learn effective kung fu that will be applicable in or out of the ring.


Mike one of my first teachers trained under Gorge Long, "white crane" and David Chin. "lama hop gar"
He along with another teacher Gary Fung taught at a small gym in the city long ago.Image

Gary would later go on to prep for a full contact match of the day....Hop Gar was and is considered a "fighting" style
In the 70s there wasn't so much ground work. Times change

If so why go up against trained fighters and embarrass your whole fucking art. So let's stop excusing the deluded please and call a spade a spade. At least leave it to someone who has thrown a punch in anger before. If I see too many more of these video I'll have a damn coronary David.


The teacher in question made a mistake as many do.

take care my friend,
I really get what your saying.


David, I don't need you to prove to me that some Chinese lines train with pads and sparring. Really?
Those clips look like they are from Western schools anyway, where those clips filmed in China ?
Guess they were harder to find then.

Of course those guys exist in China too. One of my favourite groups for example is the Yao brothers.
The Yiquan lineages, in general, don't worry about evolving and borrowing and going the Sanda route - whether method or technique. The kind of thing they do with boxing is right up my street - for example. But that's me. That's more "my style" - amongst other things.

In many ways I follow a JKD type ethos, were I think BL was updating an ethos and philosophy that Wang Xian Zhai expoused too. And I beleive that philosophy is just as traditional and older than him than the "cultural purism" of other TCMA people. There's room for different style in TCMA. I think trying to characterize TCMA as being one type of recognisable thing in a fight is pretty silly and naive.

For instance some might claim TCMA has a certain strategy and tactics that must be present to characterize it, or claimed as much to me yesterday. Really?
I think these kind of pride and culture about something like this is as much part of the problem as some people being deluded about their training.
Then there's the fact that so many don't train that well anyway despite how they think of it.. That's ok, I really have time for martial arts as lifestyle thing. A road for other things in life beside fighting. I would hope I don't have to convince you or other here on that score.

However without a good balance or some sanity to go with it, it's just a sham that lets everyone down ultimately. I think that's where we are.
It certainly isn't all bad; I could reel off a good list of CMA groups and martial artists that I have loads of time and appreciation for.

Some might use pads regularly, some not so regularly. It's not a problem for me personally, for me individual goals matter more as teachers and students all have to find what they want to spend their time on.

have you heard about Lau Gar in the UK?
They were huge in the UK kickboxing scene when it broke here - before my time. But they led the way and produced a load of tough and respected fighters. Jeremy Lau teached traditional Kung Fu but adapted it to that venue - it's just what happens, the results are simply what happens when you do that. It's not a fucking lack of exposure or any other bollocks. Neither does the more "traditional" stuff dissapear in a puff of smoke.. But that maybe another story.

Here's a UK fighter in MMA who is a product of that KF line and Jeremy Lau in the UK, he's pretty good at fighting. Just a bit.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri May 05, 2017 5:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 4:37 am

The conflict he speaks of at the Central Guoshou Academy was between the internal and external tcma. It is what eventually broke up the Academy. One of the reasons for the academy was to repair the view that the Chinese were weak, especially compared to the Japanese. Nowadays, no one doubts that Japanese ma techniques can't be used.

So.why is no bagua, xingyi, or lhbf master to take up the
challenge? Or how about Shaolin or wing chun? Or, go back to the old Academy competition and have the tcma styles duke it out to find a champion?
Last edited by Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby windwalker on Fri May 05, 2017 5:12 am

David, I don't need you to prove to me that some Chinese lines train with pads and sparring. Really?
Show me the video of TCMA lineages training their stuff on padwork that's in any way comparable to what I'm talking about and then let's see them fight with it just like boxers, sanda MMA, MT etc do.
I did ;)

Those clips look like they are from Western schools anyway, where those clips filmed in China ?
Guess they were harder to find then.


No quite easy actually, more so since I trained with some of the people who taught the style back in the 70s. Even before one
of the teachers started to modify the style so he could fight in one of the full contact venues of the time. The training was pretty much the same
with the exception of the ground stuff. The same things said now, were also said back then...

In closing, yes the taiji teacher made a mistake.
Many people are up set because it might challenge their way of thinking or experience.
They are always free to do what they ask others to do in seeking their own answers and understanding.

The guy who beat the taiji teacher is good at marketing 101....
It remains to be seen how or if he reacts to other challengers who will take him up on any new
offer he makes should he make it and the money is right.

I tend to think he'll be very selective on who he engages with if he has a choice.
Of course he may not have a choice in the matter, kind of the nature of things.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 05, 2017 6:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Overlord on Fri May 05, 2017 5:15 am

Steve James wrote:The conflict he speaks of at the Central Guoshou Academy was between the internal and external tcma. It is what eventually broke up the Academy. One of the reasons for the academy was to repair the view that the Chinese were weak, especially compared to the Japanese. Nowadays, no one doubts that Japanese ma techniques can't be used.

So.why is no bagua, xingyi, or lhbf master to take up the
challenge? Or how about Shaolin or wing chun? Or, go back to the old Academy competition and have the tcma styles duke it out to find a champion?


Steve, this is not true.
In fact, I believe they actually sit down and exchange skills every so often~

Mostly it was personal feud.
Both Xingyi and Tongbei (通備)did really well in contest then.
LHBF was considered "high end" of material in the insititute.
-saber-


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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 5:56 am

The original idea was to share knowledge for national benefit. That knowledge would be spread throughout China, and even women would learn. That's how Sun Jan Young ended up teaching there. That ideal never happened. The Academy closed. It didn't happen.
Yes, there were feuds that came down to who should head the school. Anyway, my point was that the ma v tcma debate going on today is just like the internal v external debate that's been going on in China for a century. It's about ego. Everybody wants to claim the best.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 05, 2017 7:01 am

I have sympathy for Xu Xiadong. China has it's own way of doing things, power, politics, etc. :(

Xu Xiaodong was crying in this video. (edit, new link.)

Published on May 3, 2017:
Of course, Xu Xiaodong that is engaged in Tai Chi who framed him, friends posted out of his screenshots of speech is not PS. Po is not the title party! look here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIjiZXaCA0w

From https://www.facebook.com/pg/triessencem ... e_internal:
Tri-Essence Martial Art, 5 hrs ago wrote:The incident yesterday was a bit confusing, so I've looked into a bit further and wrote out the details.

The day before yesterday, an investigation has been opened on Xu Xiaodong for various alligations, including being a US spy, selling secrets to TW (god knows what secret a mma coach can gather that real spies cant), attempting to undermine and destroy Chinese culture (if one man can threaten the whole culture, then maybe it wasn't meant to be), and lastly arranging illegal fights.

What the last one means is Xu can no longer fight anyone without the consent of the authority, in other word they've put a leash on Xu for good. Now the funny thing is, this happened 2 days ago, and then yesterday 7 thug looking students of CXW himself cornered Xu in a building in Beijing, forcing him to fight them right there and then.

Didn't Chen Zhenglei just issued a statement few days ago saying Chen village will not be taunted by Xu? Wasn't the Chen village the ones that went to big daddy Federation and reported Xu for illegal fighting? Then they turn around and sent 7 ppl to corner Xu and forcing him to fight without any announcement before hand? How dirty can one get? They know fully well that if Xu fought "illegally" again, he would be locked up, and if he didn't fight like what happened, Chen Ziqiang could then go onto his social media and say "Xu called out Chen village, we send guys to answer the challenge but instead of fighting, Xu called the police." I'm truly speechless at how low they can get.

For those of you that dono yet, Xu has been black listed by the Federation, he was contacted by his formal sport school to cut tie with him, he cannot mention the name of the school he trained and then coached for anymore in any form, anyone with any connection to official bodies would have to cut ties with him too. All for pointing out the truth that no one else would.

Below is a video of the cornering incident.
http://www.365yg.com/item/6416228509437395458/
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 7:28 am

Well, I have sympathy for those being bullied; but, I'm less sympathetic when bullies get bullied. I don't think anyone ever made his bones by beating up a tcc guy.

Funny. That's the deja vu part. It starts as soon as someone from some style says that his style "is best" or "your style is fake." Sound familiar?
Image

...or a movie.

TCMA (ma in general, but some less than others) has to get over this disease.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Kettlebells4U on Fri May 05, 2017 8:50 am

https://m.facebook.com/groups/419921708046890?view=permalink&id=1378813825491002&ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_activity
This is a video of the Tai Chi guy in question, seems he sucks at push hand as much as at fighting...
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 05, 2017 8:59 am

Steve James wrote:Well, I have sympathy for those being bullied; but, I'm less sympathetic when bullies get bullied. I don't think anyone ever made his bones by beating up a tcc guy.

I don't see Xu as bullying. The Taiji teacher knowingly accepted the challenge and outcome of the match. Plus, the Taiji teacher's excuse afterwards of his moves are "too deadly" is pathetic.

I see Xu more as a whistleblower, if the allegations are true. I think Chen Village is bullying Xu, with it's power, money and influence.

I feel more for an innocent student whom devotes their time and money, thinking they will be able to defend themselves, but ends up with a defective product. The consequences can be fatal to the student. (I am not saying this is the case here.)
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Steve James on Fri May 05, 2017 9:15 am

By "bully" I mean someone who goes to a fight expecting to beat the other guy up. You're right that this particular tcc guy took him up on the challenge. So, Xu couldn't really know how skilled his opponent was. But, he's challenging "tcc people especially," when he has to know that many don't spar in the context he wants. If he didn't know or believe, he wouldn't have asked. Anyway, if it's all tcmas he's concerned about, he could have called out the hung gar or fu jow pai guys.

Afa exposing the Chen enterprise, I think it'd be better if they didn't care. Just as I don't see any point in criticizing someone for practicing without any martial intent at all. I don't see anyone as having the right to police other martial arts. If the practitioners like it and get something out of it, leave them alone. If you're a good fighter, don't pick on those you know aren't.

And, yeah, it's too bad that Xu is getting pushed around. I do expect that he'll be confronted by guys who are just dying to teach him a lesson or let him show how good he is. Imo, he brought that on himself. It's nothing new. Though, I think many of us remember the days when people from karate (and other) schools showed up at tcc classes asking the same questions :)
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 05, 2017 12:56 pm

Steve James wrote:Anyway, if it's all tcmas he's concerned about, he could have called out the hung gar or fu jow pai guys.

I think, it's only those who Xu believes are frauds.

Steve James wrote:I don't see anyone as having the right to police other martial arts. If the practitioners like it and get something out of it, leave them alone. If you're a good fighter, don't pick on those you know aren't.

In the U.S., whistleblowers have the right to bring up false advertising by a business.

Some allegations:
Guan Nan Wang wrote:This is also the very definition of a hypocrite, when the money is good then Chen style is the only combat Taichi still functioning, that is what they have been promoting for all these years, in shows such as Experience real kungfu, Chen village vs Muay thai, Chen village vs Karate, Chen Xiaowang vs strongman, Wang Zhanhai vs strongman, vs judo, vs all kind of stuff. Which were all paid stunts to make themselves look good and pretending to be martial, but soon as a challenger come at the door, then nope they are not about fighting? That is way too cheap and faceless for my taste.

. . . Yesterday Wang Zhanjun decided to send his top "disciple" Han Feilong to fight Xu, and the disciple part is in "" because this guy isn't really trained by Wang himself, but by sanda coach hired by Wang.

. . . Xu made a live stream today replying to Wang's decision, he basically said that his doubt is with whether or not Chen village Taichi can fight, he never doubted whether or not Sanda can fight, so sending this Han who is a professional sanda athlete, does not prove anything against the argument at hand.

. . . Wasn't the Chen village the ones that went to big daddy Federation and reported Xu for illegal fighting? Then they turn around and sent 7 ppl to corner Xu and forcing him to fight without any announcement before hand? How dirty can one get? They know fully well that if Xu fought "illegally" again, he would be locked up, and if he didn't fight like what happened,

. . . For all of you saying its nothing wrong in using taichi trick, here is a video of a reporter asking CXW why ppl couldn't push him, and you know what he said? instead of revealing the trick, he recited some taichi jargon about sinking Dantian and supporting from 8 sides, and you still don think that's fraud?


Here's a new article on the incident that sums up a few points, MMA fighter owns Tai Chi master in 10 seconds, sparks debate on Chinese martial arts
http://mothership.sg/2017/05/mma-fighte ... tial-arts/:
Chan Cheow Pong, May 5, 2017 wrote:A viral video showing a duel between Mixed martial arts (MMA) fighter Xu Xiaodong and tai chi master Wei Lei (also known as Lei Lei) in Chengdu, Sichuan province last week, has sparked a heated debate over which is superior – modern combat techniques or traditional Chinese martial arts.

Xu had defeated Lei in just 10 seconds with a mixture of power, agility and aggression. In case you missed it.

Xu later issued an open challenge to all Chinese martial arts masters to take him on, and said that he will broadcast the fights across the country with RMB$1.2 million in prize money up for grabs.

He claimed that he wanted to “fight the frauds” as there were too many people claiming to be kung fu masters but actually weak in the practice. Boasting in a Weibo post that he could take on two or three of them at the same time, he wants it to be a no-holds-barred 10 minute sparring session with kicks to the groin and pokes in the eye allowed.

Chinese Martial Arts: The Emperor’s New Clothes?

Amid the sound and fury, even Jack Ma, the owner of tech giant Alibaba, who has been learning tai chi for many years and also enjoys watching MMA fights, was compelled to weigh in on the issue:

“Tai chi was orginally invented not for sparring, but as a form of exercise using the fists to illustrate its philosophy. Sparring is just one part of tai chi, but definitely not all of it.”

But the larger point was perhaps about how Chinese martial arts was exposed to be the modern day version of “The Emperor’s New Clothes”, given how Wei – supposedly a Grandmaster of his craft was soundly beaten within 10 seconds.

Some observers pointed out that, for a long time, Chinese martial arts in China had been practiced within an insular environment between competing factions and lineage, with an air of mystery surrounding it.

It is now mostly driven by the personal interest of people who dress up as culture transmitters to seek fame and fortune, while neglecting to master the true craft of sparring and ethos of Chinese martial arts.

And Xu had exposed the hypocrisy of it all.


In a few video interviews after his loss, Wei has offered a number of different excuses.

In one interview, he said that he did not want to win the fight because winning would cause “disharmony” in his life. In another interview, he said that he had held back in the fight, so as not to kill his opponent with his true internal strength.

Image


In a third interview, he blamed his defeat on his choice of footwear. He claimed that on the day of the fight he wore a pair of new shoes with rubber soles. The floor of the arena was also covered in soft rubber, which caused him to lose his balance while retreating backwards.

Official intervention


Whatever the case, it is highly unlikely that the duel between Xu and other Kung Fu experts will take place eventually.

The Chinese Wushu (martial arts) Association has issued a statement on May 3 against the duel between Xu and Wei. It said the act is unethical and illegal, signalling a possible clamp down of such activities.

Part of the statement in Chinese said:

“There are many types of traditional Chinese martial arts, for example there are 129 types of officially recognised Chinese boxing styles. In the process of teaching people, there is indeed some undesirable practices that require further regulation and management. The public should follow procedures and report individual cases of fraud, malpractices and illegal acts to the authorities, in order for them to take appropriate action. They should not get into unethical or illegal acts of dueling in the name of ‘fighting fraud’, and must less show excessive aggression or indulge in malicious stirring of publicity. “

Perhaps Jack Ma’s philosophical take on this ongoing drama between Xu and the Chinese martial arts community is food for thought:

“In front of cannons, missiles and nuclear bombs, all martial arts suffer the same fate, so what’s the point of fighting among each other?”
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby robert on Fri May 05, 2017 1:10 pm

Steve James wrote:Or, go back to the old Academy competition and have the tcma styles duke it out to find a champion?

Isn't the Chinese Wushu Association the modern form of that? They are like MLB or the NBA, but for Chinese martial arts. They have form (taolu), push hands (tui shou), and sparring (sanshou/sanda) competitions. No matter what martial art you do if you want to compete in sparring the format is sanshou. Since people compete to win they are going to adapt their style to win based on the set rules. And as we have seen over time it has become its own style, but if you think about it it is MMA. Anyway there are national championships every year.

http://jiayoowushu.com/breaking-full-contact-wushu/
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 05, 2017 2:41 pm

Jack Ma is a businessman promoting a less than high standard tai chi
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby windwalker on Fri May 05, 2017 3:07 pm

What the last one means is Xu can no longer fight anyone without the consent of the authority, in other word they've put a leash on Xu for good. Now the funny thing is, this happened 2 days ago, and then yesterday 7 thug looking students of CXW himself cornered Xu in a building in Beijing, forcing him to fight them right there and then.

Didn't Chen Zhenglei just issued a statement few days ago saying Chen village will not be taunted by Xu? Wasn't the Chen village the ones that went to big daddy Federation and reported Xu for illegal fighting? Then they turn around and sent 7 ppl to corner Xu and forcing him to fight without any announcement before hand? How dirty can one get? They know fully well that if Xu fought "illegally" again, he would be locked up, and if he didn't fight like what happened,

Chen Ziqiang could then go onto his social media and say "Xu called out Chen village, we send guys to answer the challenge but instead of fighting, Xu called the police." I'm truly speechless at how low they can get.


How anyone could do this and not expect this to happen seems odd to me..In China people fight all the time, know who is who, only its not done out in the open. The Association, by black listing him is protecting him publicly and sending a warning to others.

By not allowing him to fight he can always refuse to fight saying he is not allowed to.

They can not do so privately .. He will remain a marked man..
Just a matter of time until someone meets up with him, the next story will be
how he get beat up by some unknown TCMA guy.....

Depending on style if one publicly starts to challenge them
expect to get a "knock on the door" privately.

I've heard that some in HK and Taiwan offered to
fight him if the money was right.
Looking like maybe he wont be able to do anything.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 05, 2017 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taiji teacher KO'ed by MMA

Postby Strange on Fri May 05, 2017 5:26 pm

Steve James wrote:By "bully" I mean someone who goes to a fight expecting to beat the other guy up.


choosing fights that you can win is not bullying; it's being smart.
In choosing to fight, Lei, too, felt that he could win
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