Knife on Knife

[middleway]

some good knife on knife stuff here i think ... lots of line changes, targeting to 'unfold', lots of movement, simultaneous check and cuts ... good stuff.

Not soooo sure about some of the multiple opponents stuff ... mainly going to ground etc ... but hey ... its systema and those guys like the floor!



cheers
Chris

[Ian]

Thanks for posting. Pretty cool.

Some thoughts:

-I'm always impressed by Vladimir's mobility and the way he seems to be five moves ahead. I wonder what it takes to get to his level.
-I don't get why the attackers are falling when they don't have to. As far as I understand, one of the benefits of systema (or any decent combat system) is it makes you more resilient... maybe even stoic. I'm sure Vladimir can handle better attacks than that, and they could learn more by being just a tad more honest. I just don't see why they'd want to shoot themselves in the foot by falling as much.

[Dmitri]

-I'm always impressed by Vladimir's mobility and the way he seems to be five moves ahead.

There's one PART of an explanation for this (and something that bothers me about these demos), is that when things get hot enough, he starts to move at several times the speed of his attackers, whereas they continue to proceed at the same slow speed.

[Chris McKinley]

Keep in mind that Vlad is there to inspire/demonstrate possibilities to his students to get them thinking freely. What Vlad's really gonna do is extremely simple, fast and effective so he can get himself out of there. Take a look at the first movement of the vignette that starts at 0:49, or the very first movement at 1:02. These are the kind of instant flowing neutralizations that occur in the re4lz, whether the opponent has a knife or not.

The myth of the duel aside, there's still some good material to be isolated and practiced to the point of exhaustion in there.

[middleway]

totally agree Chris.

cheers
Chris

[Dmitri]

Those are very good; my point was that IMHO the speed differences can go too far, to the point where the "techniques" become unrealistic, because when both people are moving at or near full speed, there is no chance one of them can suddenly start moving 3 times the speed of the other to achieve a tactical advantage.

Look at the short exchange immediately following your first example, at 0:51 - 0:54
At this point:

the attacker basically stops, allowing the 'technique' to take place, and Vlad is moving at about twice the speed of the attacker. That would not be possible if they both were ALREADY moving as fast as possible (which IMHO is likely to happen in reality.) I think that if that stab was going at full speed, Vlad would do something very different to defend against it.

I'm all for slow training, as you know, it's been a big part of my own training, but the speeds have to match (at least more or less), otherwise it becomes unrealistic IME.

(Anyway, just MHO... I ain't no knife fighting expert, by any stretch of imagination.)

[JAB]

Some of the silliest stuff I have seen is Systema knife work. terrible. Just terrible.
Jake

[GrahamB]

For some reason that clip made me think of this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0SXJeSK_Vks

About 1.30 in..... not what we were expecting!

[strawdog]

His "feeders" always move in slow motion while Vasiliev moves regularly.

[middleway]

i totally agree with the speed thing ...Although there is nothing wrong with being faster than your attacker ... provided the attacker is attacking full speed!!

What i liked about the start of this clip, where its one on one, was that there are some recognisable concepts going on. Checking while cutting, immediate movement and attacking within defence, unfolding the attacker and where he is targeting, linking of the cuts etc, etc .... and initially he isnt moving too much quicker. Most of the systema Knife stuff i have seen i havent been so enthused about, especially Empty hand on knife ... but the start of this video showed some nice work IMO ...

cheers
chris

[strawdog]

In my opinion it represents a dangerous way to train.

[Chris McKinley]

As Dmitri pointed out, it's all dependent upon honesty in the movement. Training slowly is not what is on trial here; training at differing speed from your partner is. Training as fast as one can move all the time produces mediocre skill that is well-ingrained and difficult to overcome. Training exclusively slowly, especially with weapons training, is even more dangerous since it "protects" the trainee from feeling the extreme sense of urgency and danger that exists in a weapons scenario, and also insufficiently triggers the need for a willingness to take life and/or permanently maim and/or inflict horrific pain upon another human being, which is unfortunately often necessary for survival of such situations.

[JAB]

Dog-
Elaborate for those who are "slow" would ya?
Jake

[Bodywork]

Dmitri hit it pretty much spot on.
It’s artificial both in intent and execution. Another thing to always look for past the jump timing issue is the length of arm from the body that remains fully extended for extended percentages of travel path / timing -this for Vald to demonstrate he supposedly can catch and play with that movement at full speed. Also please note the attackers change to receiving of Vlads technique almost instantly every time. It's certainly lackluster. He is not using a knife in attack and body change to repeated attack in a manner we would accept. He is "tanking" for Vlad. Most who have played with knives for years recognize B.S. in attacks and tactics. It's always this way in the arts. You train someone, you train to take ...that...apart. Knife work is fast...very fast and the knife is NEVER extended out for any significant percentage of time in its path of travel. And until you have stabbed things (maybe been stabbed yourself), you might want to consider rethinking that casual body movement you see in that video as well

It's always good to remember that seeing a couple of guys waving knives in the air is meaningless. It doesn't qualify their skill in any way. Men playing with knives often lack full on all out training- and I wish to stress this includes those who may be under the illusion that military people know how to fight either empty hand or with blades by default. Nothing is further from the truth. There is a tremendous amount of presumption out there.

[Ian]

I'm not defending the clip (I haven't met Vladimir), but I've established to my own satisfaction that the RMA knife work I've experienced works. I know this because I honestly tried to "stab" the teachers I was working with - using high speed "sewing machine" strikes you see in CCTV footage, while using the other hand to strike and grab; on the ground, in the clinch, standing up. Couldn't do it. I did receive a convincing beat-down though. The type of pain that lasts for about a week.

Well, I asked for it, but in return I think I got a glimpse of how it's supposed to work.

Anyway, I'm not offended by you guys who are saying this shit is fake. But I would like to see what you consider good knifework. Not as a challenge or anything - simply because I'm interested in combat efficacy and I don't much care where it comes from or what you call it.