Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:52 pm

Don't know anything about this Dan and his Sangenkai but the Sangenkai Hawaii webpage have alot of interesting Aikido(daito-ryu) history read....at least for me as an "former" JMAist
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Tom on Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:16 pm

Trick wrote:. .. the Sangenkai Hawaii webpage have alot of interesting Aikido(daito-ryu) history read....at least for me as an "former" JMAist


Chris Li has generously and credibly translated a large number of documents relevant to aikido history . . . his Aikido Sangenkai site/blog is worth perusing (and supporting if you are able).
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Itten on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:54 am

Hey Willie,
I’m one of those “old Aikidoka” who “prey upon the weak and subservient”. Now I know you are not belittling me, are you? You wouldn’t do that would you. Some of you guys are full of shit. You insult people in all kinds of ways and then jump on a high horse and cry foul. Maybe you know your stuff, I’ll never know. What I do know at the ripe age of 65 is there is enough bad blood in the world and martial artists should also cultivate respect, tolerance and forgiveness, in the end your greatest opponent is yourself, wether through age , injury, sickness, or just plain bitterness. We have all put in a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears so drop the rhetoric. I am also not a fan of Dan’s internet persona, I am not a student of his but I respect his skill. Of course that counts for diddly squat here, since I am not an ICMA guy with an impressive fight record, like you?
Never mind that I was fighting full contact Chinese boxing 45 years ago when you were in short pants. Never mind that amongst my “weak and subservient “ students I have judoka, kareteka, TKD Guys, security professionals. I guess I just don’t shout loud enough. Anyway I’m done here in terms of posting. I will read from time to time because there is some genuine material from time to time.
God bless
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby littlepanda on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:59 am

.

Thanks for this wonderful post. Who was/is BP Chan's teacher?

DavidC wrote:A lot of these arts are dying because of a combination of things. The secrecy surrounding the methods, lack of good teachers, and time it takes to be proficient in using it to fight. Its led to a severe watering down of the internal arts and has only gotten worse because now you have a lot of "internal teachers" with a little skill spreading more watered down versions. It gets worse with each generation imo.

Based on my experience in NYC from the 80's and into the 90's, you had 3 options with decent teachers to learn "internals". If you were starting out and wanted the basics of the internal connections and fighting you could start training with Kenny Gong learning Hsing Yi and maybe some Bagua. After about 6 months with Kenny Gong he'd know you had some internal conditioning by testing your ability to take full power kicks and punches to the torso. You basically got the conditioning through standing practices. Ken Delves was one of his more advanced students. Back then a big bouncer guy I knew would push perpendicular to Ken's outstretched arm in Santi and couldn't budge Ken's arm an inch. That was another test for "internal" connection. You could swing from Ken's arm if you wanted to. Does that mean someone can fight? No but it was a test for his internal connection, if you can't do that in a static test you won't be able to do it in a more lively setting. Internals are basically progressive and you need to follow a certain progression to become proficient in any way. Leave key points and steps out and you won't have much later on.

Once you had some internal connection, you could then learn Yiquan from Master Dong. If you didn't have any basics, the stuff he showed was more intermediate Yiquan level stuff. Usually people who went to him had some training in other arts prior, if not a lot could just go over your head and you probably would not get much out of the training.

Once you really knew something if you wanted a teacher's teacher you could train with BP Chan. BP Chan was as close to the usual myths and stories you get when reading about the past internal masters. He was a really humble guy, his forms didn't really look like much, he rarely talked about who he learned from, and was always willing to learn from other teachers who had much lower skill than him. He was the only guy I knew who literally took out a trained fighter using just one finger. If you trained with him at any time you knew he had that conditioned finger he dipped in Jow. Felt like he could penetrate steel with it. He could jam his fingers full force into concrete without any visible damage.

You had to be with BP Chan a long time before you saw what he was capable of but he was on another level. The guy he sparred with was in his prime and BP Chan was probably around 70 years old or so. I won't mention names because I believe the person he sparred with now teaches Yiquan, but he was a trained fighter, boxed, could wrestle, had multiple black belts. He was the former bodyguard to the NYC Police Commissioner Brown and was also a former corrections officer at Rikers on the "goon squad". Those were the guys who would be sent to break up riots without guns so they knew how to fight. I'll call him J since I don't know if he's still active or teaches but J was known to be really tough guy. He was an MMAist before it was the popular thing it is today. He had knocked out another Sifu in NYC in seconds prior to sparring with BP Chan so he was known to be a scrapper. But when J sparred with BP Chan, who told him to do whatever he wanted, J threw 2 kicks, BP Chan blocked both with the 1 finger of his, and then ended it with with that same finger to the temple.

One of Chan's students was in disbelief when he performed nasal surgery on him without any anesthetic. He was shocked when Chan told him to do the surgery without any gas. He said he wouldn't have believed it if he hadn't done the surgery himself. BP Chan just kind of drifted into his own trance.

So clearly he was on another level mentally too. But that was also a problem with training as a beginner with him. He wasn't the guy you started the basics with. He was the guy you went to after you were proficient in the internals yourself. A real teacher's teacher. He never looked at himself like that but the stuff he was capable of was world's above anyone else. And that's the main problem with the internals today, you don't have enough guys with the skills or patience to teach the basics, and you don't have enough student's with the patience or time to learn them. After training solo for a number of years, I thought I would go back and train with BP Chan because I thought I might understand some more of what he taught. I think it was sometime in 2002 but I was told he had passed away 2 weeks ago. I left feeling pretty sad about waiting so long, he died with a lot of skill.

Anyway, sorry for the long winded post, I'm usually a lurker because basically the situation is the same as 30 years ago. 30 years ago everyone said they had the real thing and back then most people had not much to show. Does it matter? Not really. We aren't using these arts to protect ourselves from bandits and not many of the internal guys on this board are fighting professionally. But I do think it's a shame that the level has been decreasing steadily. The cultural revolution contributed a lot to the death of the arts and the secrecy surrounding them. Kenny Gong, BP Chan....those guys are gone. While it does take a special person to spar fighters with one finger and have surgery without drugs, it'll be a real shame if people don't at least preserve some of the gold within the internal arts. If not, we will just continue to lose a lot with each generation. I can’t comment on any of the exercises shown here, I mean even BP Chan asked pointers from people who I thought weren’t all that good. I just hope that people do put in the time and effort to rebuild at least some of the lost arts.




.
Last edited by littlepanda on Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby willie on Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:00 am

Itten wrote:Hey Willie,
I’m one of those “old Aikidoka” who “prey upon the weak and subservient”. What I do know at the ripe age of 65 is there is enough bad blood in the world and martial artists should also cultivate respect, tolerance and forgiveness, in the end your greatest opponent is yourself, wether through age , injury, sickness, or just plain bitterness. We have all put in a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears so drop the rhetoric. I am also not a fan of Dan’s internet persona,
Last edited by willie on Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:50 pm

Tom wrote:
Chris Li has generously and credibly translated a large number of documents relevant to aikido history . . . his Aikido Sangenkai site/blog is worth perusing (and supporting if you are able).


Absolutely. I have been continuously impressed by his translations and giving spirit.
文武両道。

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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby Bodywork on Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:16 pm

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Last edited by Bodywork on Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby willie on Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:36 pm

Two wrongs don't make a right
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby shawnsegler on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:49 pm

S-kicks up feet, cracks beer.
I prefer
You behind the wheel
And me the passenger
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Re: Tandokudosa 1 & 2 - Allen Beebe

Postby littlepanda on Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:54 am

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